White Nationalists v Democratic Socialists!

[LV426]

I never said the flags/monuments convey those things. I listed several things I said they could convey to different people.

"I'm not doing the thing I'm doing."

Gaslighting 101.

[LV426]

They don't necessarily convey all those things to anybody.

But they do convey a message, right? Which is the point.

I'm not Southern Florida (although Florida was a Confederate state). Where are you? Georgia?

Yes. Atlanta.

[PoliTalker]

Hello Jarod,

I wish some people were as unsettled by white nationalists as they are by democratic socialists.

My, but don't we live in interesting times...

[PoliTalker]

Hello dukkha,

do you mean just "nationalists" ? because that's how the world is segmented -into nation states.
White nationalism is of course a type of racism..Socialism is the bane of a dynamic economy -
it destroys risk taking (entrepreneurs).

Our economy is dynamic, grown considerably in size under Trump,and good wages and good jobs are available for the middle , and lower middle class. The poor still get monetary assistance.

We are in the best shape ever -even better then under Reagan. MAGA!

Um I would argue that we are not in the best shape in all parameters.

Yes, the rich are getting richer. That's good for them, but what about everybody else?

We have alarming high federal debt, climbing debt/GDP ratio, crumbling infrastructure, insufficient revenue, half the nation with virtually no wealth, and mediocre life expectancy.

We are faced with an existential threat in climate change and doing not enough to deal with it, and now we are unprepared for the coming pandemic. Racism and bitterness are at alarming levels, too. We are as politically divided as ever. Polarized is the word commonly used. Our education system is under performing compared to other nations, and our health care system is exclusive rather than comprehensive. Education debt is on it's way to be greater than mortgage debt.

This does not exactly sound great to me.

[PoliTalker]

Hello dukkha,

America wins!
We are not at war, our economy is the envy of the world, with so many chance for upward mobility.
Keep America Great.

Don't fool yourself.

America lags in upward mobility.

We are at class war.

[LV426]

You keep changing your argument. First, each person gets to decide if they are victims of intimidation

Right. But they can articulate that intimidation and place it within the broader historical context. So it's not as simplistic as you're making it out to be.

Then, they have to articulate it---apparently feeling intimidated is not enough

Right, because you could just disingenuously claim you're intimidated, like you're doing for people who are suddenly intimidated by the rainbow flag, not because of anything anyone who ever waved it did, nor because of the historical context of it, but because of their own inherent biases and prejudices.

No one has ever used the Rainbow Flag to oppress or intimidate anyone, as far as I know.

Now, there has to be a history of intimidation. A person feeling intimidated and being able to articulate it is not sufficient.

I don't know what you're talking about here Flash because the intimidation articulated by the people experiencing it are always within the historical context of that flag itself.

You just don't listen to them, like you're not listening to me here, and you think ignoring them is a virtue.

Instead, you are trying to prove your perspective valid by gaslighting everyone else's. Like, if we don't see things your way then we're somehow victimizing you and your instincts. Again, this is narcissistic behavior that is completely expected from sociopaths.

And, you are again pretending a flag or monument can threaten somebody.

I'm not pretending the Confederate Flag represents white supremacy and racism, or slavery, or sending people back to Africa; YOU LITERALLY SAID SO.

Unless you use the flag as a weapon to physically threaten someone it cannot be an instrument of oppression.

Of course it can...that's why it flew above state houses for decades. That's why they lined them all up adjacent to a polling station in NC last week. That's why Dylan Roof posed with it.

If the flag doesn't represent that, then from where did those white supremacists and racists ever get the idea it did?

[Flash]

You might not think that slavery and white supremacy are intimidating because of your privilege, but they are intimidating to people who have been the targets of both.

Then you gaslight anyone who says it's intimidation by diminishing their experience to say that they're "offended", not "intimidated", which is a really shitty thing only narcissists do.

I say offended because they do not meet any criminal or civil definitions of intimidation that have a remedy. People might be "intimidated" by a flag or monument, but they can't be prohibited. You have to wait until local jurisdictions choose to remove them which they can never do with a flag or other symbol people choose to show voluntarily.

Calling people entitled, privileged, sophist, or narcissist are not arguments against the fact that Americans are free to wave flags or build monuments whenever they choose. This fact does not change regardless of my opinion on the topic. Our freedoms are protected against fascist state tactics and no juvenile personal attacks on me changes that reality.

We can't remove everything that makes a person feel intimidated. We do not have safe zones like some nanny colleges, this is the real world. You will get wiser as you mature and get over being so overly sensitive and thinking black people need your understanding to be successful and protected from flags. It is just white liberal guilt that creates your need for paternal control and thinking others just do not understand the issue.

[Flash]

But they do convey a message, right? Which is the point.

Any message those things convey are not threats and thus not legally intimidation. Remember, we are protected by the 1st Amendment. And because a person says he is intimidated by something does not mean he can restrict their free expression.

Would your solution be to amend the 1st Amendment to prohibit any kind of speech you don't like? Hate speech, offensive speech, speech a person finds intimidating?

You would have been convicted for many posts you have made expressing these unacceptable views.

[LV426]

I say offended because they do not meet any criminal or civil definitions of intimidation that have a remedy.

But they do, though. You even said yourself they do. So now you're going back on what you said before, aboiut what the flag represents, to say it now doesn't represent that because if it did, it would count as intimidation.

I would consider the message of "you should be a slave" as intimidating.

But you need it to be a mere "offense" because if you admitted it was intimidation, your entire argument falls apart.

[Flash]

Of course it can...that's why it flew above state houses for decades. That's why they lined them all up adjacent to a polling station in NC last week. That's why Dylan Roof posed with it.

If the flag doesn't represent that, then from where did those white supremacists and racists ever get the idea it did?

And the New Black Panther Party members in Philadelphia. The difference is they made threats with a billy club.

Those flags never made a threat to anybody. Did anybody not vote because of those flags? You keep conveniently leaving out the "threat" element of intimidation because you know it destroys your argument.

[LV426]

People might be "intimidated" by a flag or monument, but they can't be prohibited.

Intimidation doesn't need to prohibit actual behavior, it merely needs to create a hostile environment.

That's what the EEOC says, at least.

[LV426]

You have to wait until local jurisdictions choose to remove them which they can never do with a flag or other symbol people choose to show voluntarily.

Except that you don't need to do that, as the Marines just proved two days ago when the Marine commandant ordered all Confederate flags to be removed from all Marine bases everywhere.

[LV426]

Calling people entitled, privileged, sophist, or narcissist are not arguments against the fact that Americans are free to wave flags or build monuments whenever they choose. This fact does not change regardless of my opinion on the topic. Our freedoms are protected against fascist state tactics and no juvenile personal attacks on me changes that reality.

The reality is that you don't want to accept "intimidation" simply because of what it means for your argument. Period.

So you have to gaslight people in your own narcissistic way to tell them what they're feeling isn't "intimidation", but rather "offense".

And the only reason you do that is because you think you are entitled to make that judgment because...because...well, that's what is a mystery. You haven't earned that entitlement. You aren't a lawyer. You're not a free speech expert. You're none of these things. You're a privileged, coddled, entitled white guy who isn't the target of any discrimination or intimidation.

You say you care about history and that tearing those flags down will erase history, but you don't have the same outrage for people who actually erase the history of that flag by waving it outside of a museum and historical context.

You're a hypocrite. You hold a contradictory position not because you believe it, but because you don't want to give me the satisfaction of being right about your inherent privilege and narcissism.

But guess what? I don't need that satisfaction. So you're wasting your integrity for no reason.

[Flash]

But they do, though. You even said yourself they do. So now you're going back on what you said before, aboiut what the flag represents, to say it now doesn't represent that because if it did, it would count as intimidation.

I would consider the message of "you should be a slave" as intimidating.

But you need it to be a mere "offense" because if you admitted it was intimidation, your entire argument falls apart.

Because there is no threat to make you do something. My views have been the same the entire debate. It cannot be (illegal) intimidation if it does not contain a threat and no flag or monument carries any threat. It only represents what someone perceives it to mean--Southern pride, fashion statement, white supremacy, loyalty to the Southern cause, etc.

You keep arguing against what you think are my views where in reality you are arguing against civil, criminal, and constitutional law as they exist today.

You cannot find a single case where a person was prosecuted or sued for intimidation for carrying a flag. Your political views do not make something wrong.

[LV426]

We can't remove everything that makes a person feel intimidated.

Sure we can. But doing so would mean you'd have to admit that you're gaslighting black people by telling them what they're feeling isn't "intimidation" but rather mere "offense."

Why don't you stroll into a black neighborhood and tell folks just that and see how it goes for you, because it's not going well for you here...it's making you look like a narcissist (and kind of racist too).

It's racist because it's you telling black people and other minorities that they're being hysterical or melodramatic, and that they should just calm down and stop being so uppity.

I don't believe for a second you worked on any anti-poverty programs in the 1960's. I think you're lying about that.

I think you were one of those people who stood outside places like the University of Alabama -or any integrated school- and hurled invective at the black students attending there. I think you're one of those people who attacked the Selma Marchers. I think you supported beating the freedom riders because they didn't respect the rule of law. I think you would have said Rosa Parks should have been arrested for not obeying the law. I think you're one of those people who dumped trash on black folks sitting at lunch counters. I think you have a Confederate Flag tucked away somewhere in your house.

That's fits your MO and it fits your pattern of diminishing the concerns of anyone who doesn't share your background or privilege.