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Thread: Let's Run Government On Credit; And Not Collect Enough Taxes - It'll Be Great!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    What could possibly go wrong?

    Debt is just a word, right?

    We're old white men. We don't care. We'll be dead when the bill comes due.

    Besides. We've got you fooled that this economy can last forever like this!

    Enjoy it while you can. We sure are....................
    You got your wish. We have been accumulating a debt for 200+ years.

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    Hello Woko Haram,

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    Pass the act first then. Until then, the issue is that cronyists can spend the money in other economies throughout the world.
    It is in the interest of everyone except the corrupt to pass the Anti-Corruption Act. But it will take some time. That depends on how many people agree strongly enough to join the effort, since this is something we the people must do for ourselves without waiting for government to make it happen. This should appeal to all free-thinking persons who have a healthy suspicion of government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    If that's your argument, then it sounds like you favor socialism. Bernie must be your favorite candidate. To each their own, but we are fundamentally at odds on economics.
    I favor a hybrid economy which combines capitalism and socialism in the correct balance, because that is the logical conclusion of real-life testing of different economic models all over the world and across time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    The more government grows, the fewer liberties you keep. That is half of the problem with big government.
    That is inevitable. There is no way to prevent government from growing in proportion to population growth and technological advancement. The government of 1776 needed no FAA, no FCC, for instance. Look to the distant future: We currently have 7.5 billion humans on the planet. How many personal liberties would you expect the people of a planet of a trillion humans to retain? Long ago, when the planet had only a few humans, personal liberties were ultimate. No restrictions whatsoever. Fast forward to today and personal liberties are severely restricted compared to original humans. That trend is bound to continue over time. You can't just pick a block of time and freeze the situation to your liking. To try to argue against change itself is futile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    The other half involves the economic issues I've mentioned.
    And all of the issues must be accepted and managed, because there is no preventing progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    There are numerous countries throughout the world that have a government more along the lines of what you're discussing, but their personal freedoms are considerably more restricted. If you want that, then maybe you should immigrate to one of them. The UK might be a good fit, or Canada.
    That is a ridiculous non-argument which will solve nothing. One individual changes countries. What's that going to do? If that is your best argument then you're capitulating on the weal merit of your overall argument. I can understand. I believe your argument is bound to prove faulty. It is not possible to implement a strategy of cutting back government in a growing world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    I prefer the relatively smaller government here and the much more decentralized authority.
    We don't have a small government and we never will. But if you're happy with what we've got, then you should have nothing to complain about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    Well, you seem to have no concern of freeloading. If you want to talk about economic downturns, a society that discourages ambition and does not encourage work is surely on the path to failure and collapse.
    No, I am really not concerned with freeloading. And I will tell you why. Because I have faith in human potential for good. That's why. I may be an atheist, but that doesn't mean I don't have faith. My faith is in humanity to do good, that good will triumph over bad. It always has and it always will, in the long run. Sure, there are bad people and they do bad things. But there are more good people, and the good outweighs the bad over time. This is an easy faith for me to have because I look at everything we have and I can see it was all built by humanity working together toward the common good.

    The difference between the view that people left to their own devices will do bad things and the belief that they will naturally tend to do good things is the difference between pessimism and optimism. Humans, when presented with a good situation, will mostly do good things, seek happiness and the rewards of accomplishment. This is due to natural selection. If humans tended to do bad things, mess up a good situation, then humanity would have been mostly comprised of thieves, and no advancement of civilization would have been possible because: for every thing built by one person, there would be two to steal it or destroy it. So nothing would get built, no advancement would remain. There would be no point. Hopelessness and despair would dominate, and humanity would have died out as a result. That didn't happen, because people are basically and inherently good and productive.

    We live in a fantastic world of advancement and accomplishment. Look at all we've accomplished since being cavemen. Humans are productive and good. A UBI is not going to change that. If we provided every member of society the means to survive in basic comfort, most will seek pursuits to improve their own condition above that bare minimum, whether that be by work or business or mutual trading of volunteering efforts. The work does not have to be rewarded with pay to yield a sense of accomplishment. Have you never lifted a finger to do anything you were not paid to do? I certainly have. And I believe most people have. People like to help one another simply for the act of giving and doing something nice for others. People will undertake effort and work for their own reward and as a display of their love for others and for humanity. That is a natural human instinct and it is why humanity has advanced, not regressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    That's where UBI comes in. Anyone who is capable of fulfilling government work should also be capable of finding private work. If he/she can't then he/she must not have been that economically worthwhile to begin with.
    The problem with capitalism is that it eats itself. OK? I'll explain: Capitalism always seeks to improve profits for the holders of capital. ROI. It's all about the ROI. Toward that end, labor is continually targeted for cuts. Any means may be employed to reduce labor. Offshoring, automation, systems engineering, efficiency improvement, etc. As time goes by, fewer and fewer workers are employed. That is great for profits but it does not address the other side of the capitalism equation. Sure, it's great to reduce the cost of providing products and services, but somebody has to buy those products and services. The same workers that capitalism is cutting the income of, are the potential buyers of products and services.

    As capitalism makes profiteering more efficient, it destroys it's own market. That's why capitalism always eats itself. Henry Ford understood this problem. If there is nobody who can afford to buy your products then there is no point in building them, and you won't make any money.

    Socialism and wealth redistribution can help with that. Actually, it is necessary. Capitalism is destined to fizzle out without socialism to support it. Once most of the wealth has been transferred into a very small segment of society, and most of society essentially has no wealth, no buying power, and is rendered unable to buy anything. Then the capitalist market collapses. Wealth redistribution ensures that there will always be a market for capitalism. Equitable wealth redistribution ensures that the common masses always have buying power, and the opportunity to achieve great wealth and grand dream fulfillment. It is that hope of upward mobility which motivates ambitious people to strive and achieve great things which benefit society.
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    Hello Woko Haram,

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    And what exactly would that regulation do? If you stifle construction, that drives up housing costs if people continue to move into the area. The failed approach that many big cities have tried to respond to this rise in cost is via rent control. That just ends up creating a market where cronies pass properties between each other. The other failed approach is subsidized housing, which just creates ghettos.
    Proper regulation does not limit the population. It requires that construction be done in a way which does not exacerbate flooding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    If you accept that the GDP sometimes dips no matter what, then you should understand that a temporary dip isn't an issue as long as the market is free enough to recover.
    When GDP dips, that is called recession. We don't want that. Sure, recessions happen, but we should strive to have policy which does not cause them. Recessions hurt. Recessions should be avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    It's completely unrealistic to set policies under the assumption that GDP growth can be maintained indefinitely -- particularly via government spending. That is exactly the kind of recklessness that China has been engaging in.
    Don't look now, but China is a great emerging economy. Yes, there are some lessons there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    A much more reasonable approach is to cut government spending, weather the temporary dips, and ensure that the market is able to pick up the slack by staying out of the way of business in general.
    That is only reasonable to people who are obsessed with ignoring progress and wish to revert back to some mythical time in history when they thought things were better, which is absolutely unrealistic.
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    Hello Casual Leftist,

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Leftist View Post
    Are you implying Pelosi would be an adversary? What is the point of BLu no Matter who if you don't want him to be President? If you aren't willing to do as you begged me to "compromise"?
    I will totally vote for Bernie over DT if it comes to that. Vote Blue No Matter Who is no idle wish. It is a commitment to rid our government of DT. While I prefer Bernie I do not believe he has the best chance of displacing DT.

    We must not lose sight of the most important goal of Democrats. We have to defeat DT. That is the most important goal for America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Woko Haram,


    It is in the interest of everyone except the corrupt to pass the Anti-Corruption Act. But it will take some time. That depends on how many people agree strongly enough to join the effort, since this is something we the people must do for ourselves without waiting for government to make it happen. This should appeal to all free-thinking persons who have a healthy suspicion of government.



    I favor a hybrid economy which combines capitalism and socialism in the correct balance, because that is the logical conclusion of real-life testing of different economic models all over the world and across time..

    We already have a mixed market economy. It's just not as far in the socialist direction as certain other nations.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    That is inevitable. There is no way to prevent government from growing in proportion to population growth and technological advancement. The government of 1776 needed no FAA, no FCC, for instance. Look to the distant future: We currently have 7.5 billion humans on the planet. How many personal liberties would you expect the people of a planet of a trillion humans to retain? Long ago, when the planet had only a few humans, personal liberties were ultimate. No restrictions whatsoever. Fast forward to today and personal liberties are severely restricted compared to original humans. That trend is bound to continue over time. You can't just pick a block of time and freeze the situation to your liking. To try to argue against change itself is futile..

    When considering that the world had fewer people during the Middle Ages than it had in 1776 but America developed more liberties than any medieval society, your argument doesn't hold much weight historically. It also doesn't even work within the context of American history alone. There are more liberties now than there were when we started. Slavery is no longer legal, segregation is illegal, and all adult citizens (who aren't felons) can vote. What we have seen in the last few decades, however, is a trend toward using "national security" as an excuse to restrict freedoms. That has no correlation to population size, and it's only halfway related to technology. The only relevance technology has in this is that government has more tools to spy on us with than before. That doesn't mean we should allow it to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    And all of the issues must be accepted and managed, because there is no preventing progress.

    What you call progress, I call statism.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    That is a ridiculous non-argument which will solve nothing. One individual changes countries. What's that going to do? If that is your best argument then you're capitulating on the weal merit of your overall argument. I can understand. I believe your argument is bound to prove faulty. It is not possible to implement a strategy of cutting back government in a growing world.

    It's not a non-argument. My point is that you're trying to change America into just another Western nation with too much statism. America is one of the last bastions of limited government in the West. With the way things are going, we might see certain non-Western countries rise to the top of quality of life eventually. The West has long been known for its personal freedoms, but so much of it has seem determined to throw all of that away for the sake of collectivism.

    Meanwhile, many non-Western countries seem to slowly recognize the value in personal freedoms and are starting to tear down overbearing government. There are also people struggling to fight back against an oppressive central government, like in Hong Kong. The Hong Kongers know firsthand what happens when you're forced to sacrifice freedoms for some grand scheme by government, and they're tired of dealing with its excesses.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    We don't have a small government and we never will. But if you're happy with what we've got, then you should have nothing to complain about.

    I'm complaining about the direction we're trending in. Granted, if we want to talk about people who should have nothing to complain about, tell the SJWs of the left that minority rights are better here than just about anywhere else.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    No, I am really not concerned with freeloading. And I will tell you why. Because I have faith in human potential for good. That's why. I may be an atheist, but that doesn't mean I don't have faith. My faith is in humanity to do good, that good will triumph over bad. It always has and it always will, in the long run. Sure, there are bad people and they do bad things. But there are more good people, and the good outweighs the bad over time. This is an easy faith for me to have because I look at everything we have and I can see it was all built by humanity working together toward the common good.

    I have faith in humanity too. I have faith that people make ends meet without government intervention, and that they adapt as needed.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    The difference between the view that people left to their own devices will do bad things and the belief that they will naturally tend to do good things is the difference between pessimism and optimism. Humans, when presented with a good situation, will mostly do good things, seek happiness and the rewards of accomplishment. This is due to natural selection. If humans tended to do bad things, mess up a good situation, then humanity would have been mostly comprised of thieves, and no advancement of civilization would have been possible because: for every thing built by one person, there would be two to steal it or destroy it. So nothing would get built, no advancement would remain. There would be no point. Hopelessness and despair would dominate, and humanity would have died out as a result. That didn't happen, because people are basically and inherently good and productive.

    I view it as pessimism to assume that humanity needs government to be dependent on. Ambition and hard work are what help people grow, not propping them up with money stolen by the state.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    We live in a fantastic world of advancement and accomplishment. Look at all we've accomplished since being cavemen. Humans are productive and good. A UBI is not going to change that. If we provided every member of society the means to survive in basic comfort, most will seek pursuits to improve their own condition above that bare minimum, whether that be by work or business or mutual trading of volunteering efforts. The work does not have to be rewarded with pay to yield a sense of accomplishment. Have you never lifted a finger to do anything you were not paid to do? I certainly have. And I believe most people have. People like to help one another simply for the act of giving and doing something nice for others. People will undertake effort and work for their own reward and as a display of their love for others and for humanity. That is a natural human instinct and it is why humanity has advanced, not regressed.

    A UBI that still encourages people to work can help us advance, but not any more than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    The problem with capitalism is that it eats itself. OK? I'll explain: Capitalism always seeks to improve profits for the holders of capital. ROI. It's all about the ROI. Toward that end, labor is continually targeted for cuts. Any means may be employed to reduce labor. Offshoring, automation, systems engineering, efficiency improvement, etc. As time goes by, fewer and fewer workers are employed. That is great for profits but it does not address the other side of the capitalism equation. Sure, it's great to reduce the cost of providing products and services, but somebody has to buy those products and services. The same workers that capitalism is cutting the income of, are the potential buyers of products and services.

    As capitalism makes profiteering more efficient, it destroys it's own market. That's why capitalism always eats itself. Henry Ford understood this problem. If there is nobody who can afford to buy your products then there is no point in building them, and you won't make any money.

    You're assuming that capitalism doesn't grow the "pie", so to speak. Economics are not zero-sum. As technology advances, so does productivity. The pie gets bigger, and each worker potentially has access to a bigger piece of pie, even if their proportion of the overall pie can be smaller. We've seen this in the development of every successful capitalism.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Socialism and wealth redistribution can help with that. Actually, it is necessary. Capitalism is destined to fizzle out without socialism to support it. Once most of the wealth has been transferred into a very small segment of society, and most of society essentially has no wealth, no buying power, and is rendered unable to buy anything. Then the capitalist market collapses. Wealth redistribution ensures that there will always be a market for capitalism. Equitable wealth redistribution ensures that the common masses always have buying power, and the opportunity to achieve great wealth and grand dream fulfillment. It is that hope of upward mobility which motivates ambitious people to strive and achieve great things which benefit society.

    Some public amenities make sense, but they should have discrete limits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Woko Haram,


    Proper regulation does not limit the population. It requires that construction be done in a way which does not exacerbate flooding.

    The market also does that when the repercussions of disasters are not subsidized by government.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    When GDP dips, that is called recession. We don't want that. Sure, recessions happen, but we should strive to have policy which does not cause them. Recessions hurt. Recessions should be avoided.

    Decreasing the likelihood of recession is one thing, but if the focus is always on preventing recession no matter what, it usually just creates a longer and worse recession than the market would normally create. Look at what happens when the Fed decides to keep interest rates artificially low for too long. It becomes much harder to recover from a recession when they inevitably happen, if interest rates are already close to zero.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Don't look now, but China is a great emerging economy. Yes, there are some lessons there.

    They're not doing so well right now, and it's not just because of coronavirus. In the next year or 2, they will suffer a major collapse.


    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    That is only reasonable to people who are obsessed with ignoring progress and wish to revert back to some mythical time in history when they thought things were better, which is absolutely unrealistic.

    You keep saying "progress", but what you're really talking about is "progressivism." They're quite different.

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    Hello Woko Haram,

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    You're assuming that capitalism doesn't grow the "pie", so to speak. Economics are not zero-sum. As technology advances, so does productivity. The pie gets bigger, and each worker potentially has access to a bigger piece of pie, even if their proportion of the overall pie can be smaller. We've seen this in the development of every successful capitalism.
    I am making no such assumption. I am counting on capitalism to grow the pie. And I cm counting on socialism to ensure that it is equitably distributed instead of everything save a few crumbs to the most powerful.
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    Hello Woko Haram,

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    Decreasing the likelihood of recession is one thing, but if the focus is always on preventing recession no matter what, it usually just creates a longer and worse recession than the market would normally create. Look at what happens when the Fed decides to keep interest rates artificially low for too long. It becomes much harder to recover from a recession when they inevitably happen, if interest rates are already close to zero.
    If you are arguing that a recession caused by cutting government is worth while then that's not the market normally creating a recession. That is a man-made recession caused by a political agenda being forced on government by an extremist view.

    Republicans only argue they want to cut government in order to get elected. When they get in power, they never cut enough spending to balance the budget. Republicans usually run the debt up by cutting taxes and leaving us with insufficient revenue to pay for government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Woko Haram,

    I am making no such assumption. I am counting on capitalism to grow the pie. And I cm counting on socialism to ensure that it is equitably distributed instead of everything save a few crumbs to the most powerful.
    Distribution of wealth is commensurate with ability and productivity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Woko Haram,

    If you are arguing that a recession caused by cutting government is worth while then that's not the market normally creating a recession. That is a man-made recession caused by a political agenda being forced on government by an extremist view.

    Republicans only argue they want to cut government in order to get elected. When they get in power, they never cut enough spending to balance the budget. Republicans usually run the debt up by cutting taxes and leaving us with insufficient revenue to pay for government.

    If you're saying we should never cut government spending, then hopefully, you can see what that would mean for either continuing to raise the debt or continuing to raise taxation.

    I agree that Republicans don't often follow through on cutting as much government as they say they will. Granted, they also typically spend less than Democrats and usually expand the government less.

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    Hello Woko Haram,

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    Distribution of wealth is commensurate with ability and productivity.
    But mostly power.
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    Hello Woko Haram,

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    If you're saying we should never cut government spending, then hopefully, you can see what that would mean for either continuing to raise the debt or continuing to raise taxation.
    An optimal level of taxation can be struck. Revenue will rise with the rise of the GDP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    I agree that Republicans don't often follow through on cutting as much government as they say they will.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    Granted, they also typically spend less than Democrats and usually expand the government less.
    That's not true. DT, despite promising up one said and down the other to cut government, has actually expanded it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    That's not true. DT, despite promising up one said and down the other to cut government, has actually expanded it.

    He's decreased regulations in a lot of areas. But yes, he could stand to spend less on the military and entitlements.

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    Hello Woko Haram,

    Quote Originally Posted by Woko Haram View Post
    He's decreased regulations in a lot of areas. But yes, he could stand to spend less on the military and entitlements.
    Yeah, like screwing the environment so some favored cronies can make big bux drilling on land that belongs to all of us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    What could possibly go wrong?

    Debt is just a word, right?

    We're old white men. We don't care. We'll be dead when the bill comes due.

    Besides. We've got you fooled that this economy can last forever like this!

    Enjoy it while you can. We sure are....................

    .

    .

    .

    Oh and btw: We are also killing all regulations. We don't care what they do. They are all alike, and we don't like them because they cost us money. And we can't get enough money.

    So: No more regulations!

    What could possibly go wrong?

    Don't tell us. We don't care.
    How many times do you morons have to be told, the tax cuts have not added one cent to the debt? What part of, "revenue is up", do you not understand? You people are thick as a brick, good grief.
    Liberalism always generates the exact opposite of its stated intent

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