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Thread: Romney delivers powerful message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    My original statement was that there are a lot of teachers who have over $1 million in their retirement account. I proved there are at least 350,000. Many of them are probably college teachers because they are the ones who usually have the choice between a 403(b) and a pension.
    So...thanks for providing such a clear-cut example of sophistry for everyone to see.

    What you were arguing was that there are teachers who have millions in retirement accounts that they saved themselves. You wanted people reading this thread to think that there are plenty of smart teachers who take their low wage, save for decades, and retire with millions in their retirement accounts.

    However, we come to find out that yes, there are teachers who have millions in their retirement accounts but that is placed within the context that half of them inherited their wealth, and an as-yet-undefined number of them are married to high earners and their combined savings tops $1M.

    So what you did was basically argue that apples and oranges are the same thing because they're both fruit.

    Are apples and oranges the same, Flash? Or are there differences between the two; stark differences and distinctions that distinguish them from each other. You wouldn't argue that an apple is citrus, would you? Because you're basically arguing that they are when you argue that there are teachers who have millions in their retirement accounts when you leave out the important context that half of them inherited their wealth, and a still-to-be-determined-by-you number are married to high earners and their combined savings are $1M.

    You understand what you did, right? The means by which you went about making and then falsely sourcing your argument by dismissing important distinctions that reshape the thrust of what you were arguing as irrelevant.

    They were only irrelevant to your argument because they forced it to change.

    It's a habit of yours here, Flash. You do that kind of deceptive shit all the time. You post half the story, hoping no one pick sup on it, and then when someone does, you dismiss it as irrelevant.

    What a fucking brat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    There are over 350,000 (conservative estimate) teachers who individually earned the money when we eliminate those that inherited it.
    Not a "conservative estimate"...it's something you pulled out of your ass, post-hoc, to make your argument look better than it actually is.

    The truth is you have no fucking idea how many teachers individually earned the money, and you're too fucking lazy or scared to find out.

    It's not a Conservative estimate, it's your attempt to redefine the parameters of what you meant because you weren't as buttoned up on this subject as you want people to think.

    So you did a lazy Google search, you lazily didn't read the link you provided, and then you lazily dismiss the distinctions your own link describes because they weren't helpful to your shitty argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    No, it's not.

    Tax cuts do not grow an economy.

    We know because we just saw GDP growth for last year, which was the same as it averaged over Obama's final four years.

    you lie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teflon Don View Post
    you lie
    No, you're just a fool.
    When I die, turn me into a brick and use me to cave in the skull of a fascist


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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    So...thanks for providing such a clear-cut example of sophistry for everyone to see.

    What you were arguing was that there are teachers who have millions in retirement accounts that they saved themselves. You wanted people reading this thread to think that there are plenty of smart teachers who take their low wage, save for decades, and retire with millions in their retirement accounts.

    However, we come to find out that yes, there are teachers who have millions in their retirement accounts but that is placed within the context that half of them inherited their wealth, and an as-yet-undefined number of them are married to high earners and their combined savings tops $1M.

    So what you did was basically argue that apples and oranges are the same thing because they're both fruit.

    Are apples and oranges the same, Flash? Or are there differences between the two; stark differences and distinctions that distinguish them from each other. You wouldn't argue that an apple is citrus, would you? Because you're basically arguing that they are when you argue that there are teachers who have millions in their retirement accounts when you leave out the important context that half of them inherited their wealth, and a still-to-be-determined-by-you number are married to high earners and their combined savings are $1M.

    You understand what you did, right? The means by which you went about making and then falsely sourcing your argument by dismissing important distinctions that reshape the thrust of what you were arguing as irrelevant.

    They were only irrelevant to your argument because they forced it to change.

    It's a habit of yours here, Flash. You do that kind of deceptive shit all the time. You post half the story, hoping no one pick sup on it, and then when someone does, you dismiss it as irrelevant.

    What a fucking brat.
    I said a lot of teachers have a retirement account of $1 million plus.

    You said: "LOL @ the thought of teachers being millionaires."

    I proved I was right--with a few hundred thousand meeting that criteria. The exact number is not important since even 100,000 would show your comment was uninformed.

    And this has nothing to do with teachers, anybody contributing to a retirement account for 40 years with money in a 500 index fund is going to have $1 million plus.

    Having $1 million in their retirement account would obviously not include those who inherited their money--so an irrelevant diversion

    Having a two-earner couple is also an irrelevant diversion since I said retirement account--not retirement income.

    As usual, you think writing a lot of irrelevant nonsense is an argument.

    You always get very hostile, insulting, and rude when posters prove you wrong and accuse people of sophistry and being lazy. Then, you drop the topic and we never hear from you again like when I proved about 7 million Obama voters voted for Trump, that you can't legally assault or murder a person because he is a Nazi, that waving a Confederate flag in public is not "intimidation" because you do not understand the legal meaning of that term, that the 90% tax rates raised no more revenue as a percent of GDP as the lower rates of later years, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    Not a "conservative estimate"...it's something you pulled out of your ass, post-hoc, to make your argument look better than it actually is.

    The truth is you have no fucking idea how many teachers individually earned the money, and you're too fucking lazy or scared to find out.

    It's not a Conservative estimate, it's your attempt to redefine the parameters of what you meant because you weren't as buttoned up on this subject as you want people to think.

    So you did a lazy Google search, you lazily didn't read the link you provided, and then you lazily dismiss the distinctions your own link describes because they weren't helpful to your shitty argument.
    A very, very conservative estimate of 100,000 still proves you wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    EXCEPT THAT YOUR OWN FUCKING LINK SAYS HALF OF THEM INHERITED THEIR WEALTH, and that a sizable portion of the remaining are part of a dual-income household.
    I said have a retirement account of $1 million or more.

    You don't inherit money into a retirement account so irrelevant trivia.

    A retirement account does not include money made by a spouse and does not measure retirement income.--more irrelevant trivia to cover up for your lack of any knowledge on this topic.

    I have pointed out these errors in your reasoning but you keep repeating the same stuff. Admit it, you were wrong.

    This is just Fidelity and does not include 403(b) for public employees like teachers or IRAs:

    "The number of 401(k) participants who had $1 million or more in workplace retirement plans managed by Fidelity Investments hit 200,000 in the third quarter of this year, up from 196,000 in the previous quarter."

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...d00_story.html
    Last edited by Flash; 02-20-2020 at 12:11 AM.

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    Earl (02-20-2020)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    I said a lot of teachers have a retirement account of $1 million plus.
    But not because most -or all- of them earned it...but because they inherited it, or married into it.

    So you want to leave that part out because it totally changes the complexion of the argument you're making.

    The sad thing is that the link you thought would help your argument actually helped mine by pointing out that when it comes to teachers, unless you inherit wealth or marry a higher earner, you're probably never going to come close to having $1M in a retirement account through just the wage you get.
    When I die, turn me into a brick and use me to cave in the skull of a fascist


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    Earl (02-20-2020)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    I proved I was right--with a few hundred thousand meeting that criteria. The exact number is not important since even 100,000 would show your comment was uninformed.
    The exact number is important, Flash for a couple reasons:

    1) it shows you did the work, which you didn't do and refuse to do because you're lazy

    and

    2) it places it into context

    You completely and deliberately left out the fact that, according to your own link, half of those "teacher millionaires" inherited their millions. And then you refuse to do the actual work of finding out just how many of those "teacher millionaires" are millionaires through saving their wages for decades.

    You won't do that work because you can't. So instead, you lie and you try to force through your own shitty estimates -estimates you aren't even confident in yourself- as some kind of standard because you're used to people accommodating your bad faith. So when someone comes along like me, who completely doubts you and knows that you only tell half-truths, suddenly everything that was once in support of your argument is deemed "irrelevant" because it doesn't help your argument anymore.

    When you posted that there are teachers who have millions saved, did you know that half of them inherited their millions? Or did you just post that hoping you could fill the truth in post-hoc?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    And this has nothing to do with teachers, anybody contributing to a retirement account for 40 years with money in a 500 index fund is going to have $1 million plus.
    1. You made it about teachers, Flash. You did that.

    2. You said that without even knowing that half of those teachers you were celebrating inherited their wealth.

    3. You still don't know how many of the other half saved millions only because they were married to higher earners and their combined savings tops $1M.

    4. Are you counting home equity in those savings too? Do you even know? Because home equity could make up as much as 1/3 to 2/3 of the "millions saved". But we don't know that because you won't do that work, opting instead of a lowest-common-denominator approach that adds nothing of substance to the debate.

    #4 is a particularly tough thing because it doesn't sound to me like you've put in any work to understand your own position, and you never will because you're too lazy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    Having a two-earner couple is also an irrelevant diversion since I said retirement account--not retirement income.
    A two earner couple would have combined savings, wouldn't they?

    So here's what you did...

    First, you planted goalposts by saying that there are plenty of teachers who have millions saved.
    Then, you moved those goalposts when the link you provided showed that half of them inherited their millions
    Then, you moved those goalposts again when the link you provided said that an as-yet-defined-number-by-you of teachers are married to higher earners and their combined savings comes to $1M
    Then, you moved those goalposts a third time by "estimating" (with absolutely no sources or research, just your own gut feeling) a number of teachers far smaller than the original claim you made earlier managed to save over 40 years. But even that is a faulty assumption to make because:

    a) it's not researched
    b) it's not an educated guess
    c) it's you shifting the goalposts post hoc
    d) it's sophistry

    So the thing you submitted in this debate, the only link you submitted, managed to place some pretty significant qualifiers around the statement you made that kicked this whole thing off.

    So you keep moving the bar on who you're talking about, and now you've moved it so much that you're even saying that the fact that they're teachers is irrelevant!

    What a fucking joke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    A very, very conservative estimate of 100,000 still proves you wrong.
    Again, that's pulled straight from your ass.

    And there are 3.7 million teachers in the country, so 100,000 / 3,7 million = 3%

    3%

    That's what you're celebrating here? 3% according to your own shitty, post-hoc estimate that has no support, no evidence, nothing other than your bad faith on which it relies.
    When I die, turn me into a brick and use me to cave in the skull of a fascist


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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    I said have a retirement account of $1 million or more.
    No, you said "teachers saved millions".

    Turns out that's not really true, is it?

    We know it's not true because your own link says half of the teachers inherited that wealth. Then your link goes on to say how another amount (still undefined because you refuse to do that research) are married to high earners and their combined savings tops $1M. Which is wholly different than a teacher saving that much on their own.

    Also, according to your link, most teachers quit within 5 years. So most of them won't even come close to saving $1M in a retirement account of any kind.


    "The number of 401(k) participants who had $1 million or more in workplace retirement plans managed by Fidelity Investments hit 200,000 in the third quarter of this year, up from 196,000 in the previous quarter."
    60% of Americans don't own stock.

    60% of all stock is owned by the top 0.1%.

    80% of all stock is owned by the top 10%.

    The average 401k balance is about $100K. When you subtract the top earners from that, the average balance drops to about $50K.

    So your argument that we should pour our savings into the stock market is...?
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    Romney's message to LV: 'I couldn't beat an unqualified black BOY so I'm mad at Trump for beating the person the black BOY said was the most qualified to ever run for office.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Flash is forgetting to include the words "federal income", before taxes.
    Try reading more carefully:

    Top 1%: 19.72% of income and 37.32% of all federal individual income taxes
    Top 5%: 35.20% of income and 58.23% of all federal individual income taxes
    Top 10%: 46.56% of income and 69.47% of all federal individual income taxes
    Top 25%: 68.43% of income and 85.97% of all federal individual income taxes
    Top 50%: 88.41% of income and 96.96% of all federal individual income taxes


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