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Thread: The Democrats witness dilemma

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    You’re guessing/hoping the Biden’s aren’t dirty lol.

    At worst, Trump is guilty of a lame attempt at pressuring Zelensky to announce an investigation into a matter that is *worthy of an investigation*. The investigation never happened, the Ukrainians got their money and lethal weapons and etc.

    Many reasonable people would say ‘no harm, no foul’ or call it a Silly Burger.

    At worst, Hunter Biden was involved in a Ukrainian protection racket, which raises the question of whether Obama was aware of it.

    Let’s dump all the worms on the table.
    Actually...AT WORST...Trump is guilty of attempting to extort Zelensky using means only available to a president (acting illegally)...for personal political benefit...

    ...which might lead to an impeachment for abuse of office (which it has)...

    ...and possible removal from office (which it probably won't.)

    So YOUR "at worst" scenario is demonstrably wrong.
    ON HIS WORST DAY, JOE BIDEN IS A BETTER PRESIDENT THAN TRUMP WAS ON HIS BEST DAY!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Actually...AT WORST...Trump is guilty of attempting to extort Zelensky using means only available to a president (acting illegally)...for personal political benefit...

    ...which might lead to an impeachment for abuse of office (which it has)...

    ...and possible removal from office (which it probably won't.)

    So YOUR "at worst" scenario is demonstrably wrong.
    Why did democrats give up on extortion, Frank?

    I’ll tell you why lol. It’s not there. They might as well scratch ‘obstructing congress’ off the ticket because that’s a joke. Abuse of power is nebulous and sets a dangerous precedent for future presidents since practically all of them act in ways that can be construed as ‘abuse of power’.

    Not that you care about such things, you just want rid of Trump and if that means making it easier for future Houses to impeach future presidents—so be it.

    Right, Frank?
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    This isn’t going to be the tightly controlled House investigation, all over again, so there’s no point in deluding yourself with the notion Hunter Biden has nothing to offer in Trump’s defense. If the Biden’s are dirty—or even if they come out looking more suspiciously dirty than they already do, then Trump will be justified in asking [and even pressuring] Zelensky for an investigation. That Trump would benefit politically is irrelevant. IOW, game over.

    A Senate trial, with witnesses, will be an opportunity to dump the whole can of worms on the table to see what crawls out.
    If Biden's son is called, you have to also call all the witnesses actually involved with the conspiracy. trump does NOT want that. he is doing everything in his power to block that from happening. That would mean months of listening to trump administration officials admit to illegal acts, OR go to jail for refusing to testify.

    But I agree, you would get to call Biden's son... Who would then testify to how he cleaned up Burisma to a point they could pass western due diligence processes. You forget that Biden has already had to sign on to testimony about cleaning up Burisma, and so you really are not going to get much more out of him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl View Post
    Burisma Holdings Limited is based in the Ukraine...the investigation should have been done in the country of origin.
    Biden is an American, which means giving or accepting bribes are illegal for him, anywhere in the world. Many places allow a level of bribery that is not allowed for US Citizens. If you want to get Biden(and he is guilty of anything), the best place to start is America.

    The worst place to start is with a Ukrainian press conference that accomplishes nothing. That is the strategy of a corrupt president just trying to get political points.

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    The Republican Senate can call one witness or no witnesses. Neither the House or JPP leftists or Nervous Nancy control anything in the Senate trial

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    It’s clear that Democrats need witnesses in the Senate impeachment trial since it’s a slam dunk acquittal based on the articles Nancy solemnly/gleefully sent over to the Senate.

    Which begs the question if they should have been sent to begin with—but Democrats wanted their Trump impeachment*, so yeah.

    At any rate, that means the defense gets to call Hunter Biden, and others, since Democrats insist on the trial being ‘fair’. Do Democrats risk playing ‘dog catches car’ by putting Hunter Biden under oath? What confidence do they have that Hunter is clean besides reassuring themselves, back and forth, that Hunter is clean? The fact is, Hunter Biden is a Black Box—no one knows what’s inside it until it’s opened. And we all know his past is ‘checkered’, to be diplomatic about it.

    Or how about the WB? For months, Democrats and their media minions have been lying about the WB protection law which *doesn’t* guarantee anonymity. If Democrats want Bolton to appear—so will the WB. Then we’ll get to find out if there was anything resembling a set-up going on between the WB and Adam Schiff.

    Shifty may be a House manager but he’s also *a material witness* to how this whole thing started. Do Democrats really want a known liar under oath in a Senate trial? This won’t be the basement of the House where Democrats can tightly control everything.

    This can get ugly, quick. But I fully expect Democrats to keep the pedal to the metal.
    It is going to get ugly as soon as Bolton testified you backwoods toothless retard.
    It is the responsibility of every American citizen to own a modern military rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    If they voted on the articles as they stand, Trump walks.

    Witnesses are a gambit for Democrats. You can admit or not.
    Shut up you fucking moron.
    It is the responsibility of every American citizen to own a modern military rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    If Biden's son is called, you have to also call all the witnesses actually involved with the conspiracy. trump does NOT want that. he is doing everything in his power to block that from happening. That would mean months of listening to trump administration officials admit to illegal acts, OR go to jail for refusing to testify.

    But I agree, you would get to call Biden's son... Who would then testify to how he cleaned up Burisma to a point they could pass western due diligence processes. You forget that Biden has already had to sign on to testimony about cleaning up Burisma, and so you really are not going to get much more out of him.
    You got the cover story down lol.

    The fact is nobody really knows anything beyond it. Joe has already told the whopper that he and Hunter never discussed the latter’s job at Burisma. And no offense, but we are to think the Ukrainians ‘need to be instructed’ on how to run a business in a non-corrupt fashion?

    What are they, stupid?
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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    Let’s be clear, The Democrats know the outcome in the Senate. This is pure politics to affect the outcome in Nov.

    This will fail, President Trump will be exonerated and remain president for five more years with a landslide victory.

    This failed attempt by the Democrats to remove a sitting president that the American voters elected will be long remembered by Middle America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    The Ukrainians are better equipped to investigate corruption in their own country than we are. A seemingly obvious point.
    You think an extremely corrupt government is better at investigating their own corruption, even if they do not have the laws to even prosecute them? There is a reason it is illegal in the USA for Americans to be corrupt anywhere else, and that is because we cannot and do not trust failed states to keep our citizens from being corrupt.

    Lets say ExonMobile pays a Nigerian politician $100 million for oil rights. Nigeria cannot be trusted to investigate the case. In fact, they might demand a bribe from an innocent person not to be prosecuted. So the USA basically ignores the Nigerian government, and investigates such a case themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Burisma was under investigation.
    Yes, Burisma was under investigation for things that happened before Biden was brought on board to clean up the company. Biden complained the investigation was suspended, because it hurt his efforts to clean up the company.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Then Burisma was never investigated again, while Hunter was being paid $50k/month to sit on the board.
    Now that part is untrue. Biden was able to get the investigation restarted. Without the investigation, there was no way that Burisma could ever pass western due diligence. Usually, you want to shutdown an investigation, but in this case things had gone too far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Hunter is a recovering drug addict that got booted from the Navy and managed to get a stripper pregnant.
    trump accepted illegal campaign contributions to pay strippers for sex. Part of the paperwork we have seen so far talks about how to handle pregnancies that happened from that.

    In other words, maybe Biden did get a stripper pregnant, and maybe not. But he is a private citizen, so that is not a concern of the Senate. trump using illegal campaign contributions to cover up his stripper sex is a concern of the Senate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl View Post
    The Republican Senate can call one witness or no witnesses. Neither the House or JPP leftists or Nervous Nancy control anything in the Senate trial
    Sort of.

    It would be tough for the Republicans to get past a filibuster, and they would have to make a massive change the rules of the Senate. But even a filibuster would achieve their goal of blocking the witnesses. The problem is that it all has to be done in public. The Republicans will have to take a major burn in their reputations to cover this up.

    trump demanded an outright dismissal. Senate Republicans have already stated they do not have the political capital for that. Maybe they can block any witnesses, but only allowing witnesses against Biden would be politically impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    Sort of.

    It would be tough for the Republicans to get past a filibuster, and they would have to make a massive change the rules of the Senate. But even a filibuster would achieve their goal of blocking the witnesses. The problem is that it all has to be done in public. The Republicans will have to take a major burn in their reputations to cover this up.

    trump demanded an outright dismissal. Senate Republicans have already stated they do not have the political capital for that. Maybe they can block any witnesses, but only allowing witnesses against Biden would be politically impossible.
    Rule changes can be done with a simple majority...and there will be rule changes.

    There will be no filibusters, the times are strictly allotted.

    All of a sudden. the Democrats who conducted one of the most unfair and partisan shams in the House, in history are concerned with fairness.

    Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl View Post
    This will fail, President Trump will be exonerated and remain president for five more years with a landslide victory.
    You are probably one third right, but definitely two thirds wrong. The Senate will fail to convict trump, that much is almost certainly correct.

    Republicans will NOT even try to "exonerate" trump. Bringing forward the witnesses that could either exonerate, or convict trump would just reinforce that he is guilty in the voters minds. And make no mistake about it, trump is quite guilty.

    trump will NOT win in a landslide. he might eke out a win, probably not in the popular vote, but maybe in the Electoral College. There is no way he gets a landslide.


    Quote Originally Posted by Earl View Post
    This failed attempt by the Democrats to remove a sitting president that the American voters elected will be long remembered by Middle America.
    This is going to sound mean, but nobody cares. Not Democrats, not Republicans, nobody. Who cares how long people who will vote for Republicans all the time will remember something. They are going to vote for Republicans whatever the Democrats or Republicans do. They will do that until they die.

    What is a concern is what will people in battleground states think. They are overwhelmingly for impeachment, but not necessarily conviction. And there in lies the rub. Republicans have to look like they are taking this seriously, or they will lose all the battleground states. They also must keep this from getting anymore serious than it is, or they will lose all the battleground states.

    And then there is the dying thing. Republican voters will be Republican voters until they die... But that is going to happen sooner or later. Republicans are not making good inroads with the younger people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    The fact is nobody really knows anything beyond it.
    Actually, you are wrong there. Biden's whole job at Burisma was to pass western due diligence. That means his whole job was to create a complete and perfect paper trail that is easily followed by western businesses. Say whatever else you want about Biden, he is good at his job.

    And the Senate is not good at this job, in fact they have no experience at this job. Biden and Burisma have been gone over by almost every Western European government regulator and major bank. They found nothing, and admitted Burisma into western business. That is quite an accomplishment. I very much doubt that the Senate Republicans will find problems that so many actual experts in the field missed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    And no offense, but we are to think the Ukrainians ‘need to be instructed’ on how to run a business in a non-corrupt fashion? What are they, stupid?
    Rooting out corruption is not an easy task, but proving that you have rooted out corruption is extremely difficult. It requires a huge amount of experience and education. I have literally only touched the sides of minor due diligence investigations, and it was a huge task. For a company along the lines of Burisma, it is a nearly impossible feat.

    Biden deserves a lot of credit for getting Burisma through that. Anyone who thinks that is easy is making a huge mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walt View Post
    You think an extremely corrupt government is better at investigating their own corruption, even if they do not have the laws to even prosecute them? There is a reason it is illegal in the USA for Americans to be corrupt anywhere else, and that is because we cannot and do not trust failed states to keep our citizens from being corrupt.

    Lets say ExonMobile pays a Nigerian politician $100 million for oil rights. Nigeria cannot be trusted to investigate the case. In fact, they might demand a bribe from an innocent person not to be prosecuted. So the USA basically ignores the Nigerian government, and investigates such a case themselves.



    Yes, Burisma was under investigation for things that happened before Biden was brought on board to clean up the company. Biden complained the investigation was suspended, because it hurt his efforts to clean up the company.



    Now that part is untrue. Biden was able to get the investigation restarted. Without the investigation, there was no way that Burisma could ever pass western due diligence. Usually, you want to shutdown an investigation, but in this case things had gone too far.



    trump accepted illegal campaign contributions to pay strippers for sex. Part of the paperwork we have seen so far talks about how to handle pregnancies that happened from that.

    In other words, maybe Biden did get a stripper pregnant, and maybe not. But he is a private citizen, so that is not a concern of the Senate. trump using illegal campaign contributions to cover up his stripper sex is a concern of the Senate.
    The woman has DNA evidence—and while it has no bearing on the issue it speaks to the kind of individual democrats risk putting under oath in front of the Senate. And I don’t know what, if any, experience you have with individuals with drug problems but putting them in situations where big money is changing hands is a no-go in my experience.

    Some of them fully recover but just as many go back and forth with it.

    But Joe was VP, so yeah. If this obvious conflict of interest would have been addressed under Obama’s ‘scandal free’ reign none of this would have happened.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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