Celticguy (01-12-2020), Earl (01-13-2020), Grokmaster (01-12-2020), Sailor (01-12-2020)
From the outset, the ploy of Pelosi withholding the House impeachment articles was as implausible as it was hypocritical. There was no reason why Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell would make concessions to get an impeachment that he loathed. More importantly, just a couple of days earlier, House leaders insisted that some of us were wrong to encourage them to wait on an impeachment vote to create a more complete record. Pelosi previously insisted that House committees could not pursue direct witnesses like former national security adviser John Bolton because there was no time to delay in getting this impeachment to the Senate. She then waited a month and counting to send the articles over to the Senate.
The delay now seems largely driven by a desire to preserve the image of Pelosi as a master strategist despite a blunder of the first order. Senator Dianne Feinstein expressed the frustration of many members in saying, “The longer it goes on, the less urgent it becomes. So if it is serious and urgent, send them over. If it is not, do not send it over.” But she and other members were quickly pressured to “correct” their earlier statements by stating the exact opposite and praising the brilliant strategy of Pelosi.
Perhaps the most pathetic change was House Armed Services Committee Chairman Adam Smith, who correctly stated, “At the end of the day, just like we control it in the House, Mitch McConnell controls it in the Senate. It does not look like that is going to happen. I think it is time to send the impeachment to the Senate and let Mitch McConnell be responsible for the fairness of the trial. He ultimately is.” It took just a few hours for Pelosi to get Smith to say that he “misspoke” and praise her inspired strategy.
Now what started as a demand to guarantee Senate witnesses has been downgraded to a demand to “know the rules” while waiting for the Senate to take a vote that it indicated weeks ago.
In the alternative, sympathetic media figures insisted that Pelosi succeeded in “forcing a discussion” of Senate witnesses despite the fact that we had the same discussion in the trial of Bill Clinton without the House deciding to withhold the articles.
The fact is that Pelosi played into the hands of McConnell by first rushing this impeachment forward with an incomplete record and now giving him the excuse to summarily change the rules, or even to dismiss the articles. Waiting for the House to submit a list of managers was always a courtesy extended by Senate rules and not a requirement of the Constitution.
By inappropriately withholding the articles of impeachment and breaking with tradition, Pelosi simply gave McConnell ample reason to exercise the “nuclear option” and change the rules on both majority voting as well as the rule for the start of trials. That is a high price to pay for her vanity.
It could get even worse for the House case. I previously discussed that the Senate had an excuse to simply declare that a trial will start next week and either the House will appear with a team of managers or the case will be summarily dismissed. McConnell is now moving toward a summary vote in the Senate, in light of the House failing to comply with its own procedural obligations. That is what happens when prosecutors defy a court and fail to appear for a trial. It is known as “dismissal for want of prosecution.”
The Senate also is faced with two threshold problems that could create lasting damage to this process. First, the obstruction of Congress count, as I previously discussed, raises a troubling position that a president can be impeached for going to the courts rather than turning over evidence, even when the House set a ridiculously brief period for an investigation. The Senate could summarily reject that article as making the request for judicial review into a high crime and misdemeanor while allowing little time for deliberation. Second, if the Senate agrees to the Democratic demand for witnesses, it invites future rush impeachments where the House sends woefully incomplete and inadequate cases and demands witnesses it never bothered to subpoena, let alone compel to appear.
The Senate is, therefore, caught in a tough position of enabling the House in such slipshod impeachments or refusing to hear witnesses who, unlike the witnesses called by the House, could have direct evidence to share on the allegations. One possibility is that, as in a real court, the Senate could allow witnesses but give the House a set trial schedule. If the House wants to belatedly go to court to try to enforce a subpoena, the Senate will hear the testimony of witnesses like Bolton when that expedited litigation is complete. However, it will not extend the trial schedule of the Senate.
Trials will usually last a fraction of the time of an investigation, but few investigations are as hurried or heedless as the House investigation was. The House wasted four months after the whistleblower complaint without issuing a subpoena to Bolton or Rudy Giuliani or others. Had it sought to compel such subpoenas, it would have had rulings from the courts by now. Indeed, it took only three months for the appeal over the Watergate tapes to be ruled on by the Supreme Court in the case of Richard Nixon.
The Senate could set a generous period for the trial of three weeks. That is in addition to the four weeks the House wasted on the poorly conceived ploy by Pelosi. If the House is ready to present these witnesses, they can be heard. But if those witnesses are not ready to testify due to ongoing litigation, they will not be called and the Senate will proceed to its verdict. In that way, future Houses are now on notice that it is in their interest to complete their records before sending an impeachment to the Senate.
It would send a message for future impeachments, as the author Herman Wouk wrote, “Remember this, if you can. There is nothing more precious than time. You probably feel you have a measureless supply of it, but you have not. Wasted hours destroy your life just as surely at the beginning as at the end, only in the end it becomes more obvious.” It is now obvious.
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciar...mp-impeachment
Jonathan Turley
Celticguy (01-12-2020), Earl (01-13-2020), Grokmaster (01-12-2020), Sailor (01-12-2020)
delay now seems largely driven by a desire to preserve the image of Pelosi as a master strategist despite a blunder of the first order.
Senator Dianne Feinstein expressed the frustration of many members in saying, “The longer it goes on, the less urgent it becomes.
So if it is serious and urgent, send them over. If it is not, do not send it over.”
But she and other members were quickly pressured to “correct” their earlier statements by stating the exact opposite and praising the brilliant strategy of Pelosi.
Grokmaster (01-12-2020), Sailor (01-12-2020)
Already seen this post, or at least, the same Turley article. Truley has to think that way to stay consistent with the opinion given to the Intelligence Committee, yet it is based upon a belief that what occurs in the Senate would be an actual trial, which no one outside of the Fox bubble believes is going to happen. There never was a case that the House could bring to Mitch that he wasn't going to "vindicate" Trump, simple fact Turley is overlooking
Pelosi, in stalling, has bought out that the Senate "trial" is going to be nothing more than a show "trial" orchestrated by Mitch to appease Trump, when it all comes down according to plan, that is how Americans will see it, especially when witnesses are denied, and Pelosi's tactics has reinforced the portrait
cancel2 2022 (01-13-2020)
Nomad (01-12-2020)
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domer76 (01-13-2020)
Turley doesn’t reside in the Trump bubble.
He claimed to not vote for Trump so he’s a likely Hillary voter. Turley is often critical of Trump. Actually, he’s the rare Trump critic that isn’t a Never Trumper or inflicted with the Orange Man Bad Syndrome.
IOW, he’s worth listening to. While liberal media pundits are polishing the impeachment turd, Turley steps in and explains why there’s a turd to polish.
And he’s right: this was a first class blunder by Pelosi. Instead of waiting [don’t bother with the excuses] for the Bolton subpoena to be cleared by the courts Pelosi and the Democrats we’re giving half-cocked reasons why they needed to hurry. Consequently, House Democrats passed the weakest articles, ever. And the most weakly supported articles, ever.
And we all know why lol.
Democrats wanted Trump *impeached so they could type Trump* or IMPOTUS on Twitter like childish partisans might do. That’s about where Pelosi’s radical base is at.
In giving them, that, Pelosi put herself in the position of having to cling to the articles and try and use them to ‘leverage’ the Turtle with something he doesn’t want. Which is actually kind of funny, when you think about it. Kind of like me telling you, if you give me $20, I’ll come over and kick your dog. Make it $30 and I’ll kick your dog in front of your kids.
And this is ‘the master negotiator’ we’re talking about. As pointed out in another thread, the outcome of all this was entirely predictable. Pelosi should just bite the bullet send them over.
Or not. That way the Senate could dismiss them for lack of prosecution. Would Trump still be *impeached if that happened?
Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017
Sailor (01-12-2020)
HORSE SHIT. By voting on Articles of Impeachment, THE HOUSE'S CASE IS COMPLETE. PELOSI'S ASININE NONSENSE HAS BLOWN UP IN HER FACE.
The SENATE IS NOT REQUIRED TO MAKE THE HOUSES'S CASE FOR THEM.
THERE IS NO SUCH CRIME AS "ABUSE OF POWER", and the STALIN-O-CRATS ARE RIDICULOUSLY CHARGING "OBSTRUCTION of CONGRESS" FOR THE PRESIDENT SEEKING RULINGS IN STALIN-O-CRAT SUBPOENAS, IN THE COURTS.
IOW, HIS ABSOLUTE RIGHT UNDER THE US CONSTITUTION .
THE STALINIST TREASON-O-CRATS KNOW THAT THEY ARE ABOUT TO GET ASS FUCKED IN FRONT OF THE WORLD....
POPCORN = READY.
TRUMP WILL TAKE FORTY STATES...UNLESS THE SAME IDIOTS WHO BROUGHT US THE 2020 DUNCE-O-CRAT IOWA CLUSTERFUCK CONTINUE THEIR SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES...THEN HE WILL WIN EVEN MORE ..UNLESS THE RED CHINESE AND DNC COLLUDE, USE A PANDEMIC, AND THEN THE DEMOCRATS VIOLATE ARTICLE II OF THE CONSTITUTION, TO FACILLITATE MILLIONS OF ILLEGAL, UNVETTED, MAIL IN BALLOTS IN THE DARK OF NIGHT..
De Oppresso Liber
I suspect Trump is being impeached because he is a low life lying selfish prick who only does what profits him. He embarrasses the country more every day he is in office. His lies are not just fibs. He lies about everything big and small. He is completely untrustworthy.
Trump has lied about the Iran nuclear deal from the campaign onward. It has all been lies. He lied about Hillary all the way through. It is tough to beat a person when you respect the rules and they have none.
TRUMP WILL TAKE FORTY STATES...UNLESS THE SAME IDIOTS WHO BROUGHT US THE 2020 DUNCE-O-CRAT IOWA CLUSTERFUCK CONTINUE THEIR SEDITIOUS ACTIVITIES...THEN HE WILL WIN EVEN MORE ..UNLESS THE RED CHINESE AND DNC COLLUDE, USE A PANDEMIC, AND THEN THE DEMOCRATS VIOLATE ARTICLE II OF THE CONSTITUTION, TO FACILLITATE MILLIONS OF ILLEGAL, UNVETTED, MAIL IN BALLOTS IN THE DARK OF NIGHT..
De Oppresso Liber
All this bullshit is just a load of folderol which only serves to make Turley look like he has an in-depth knowledge of government, while overlooking one simple fact... there are first hand witnesses who could testify to exactly what happened when, and what was said to whom and by whom and for what purpose.
But Trump and McConnell will not allow them to be placed under oath so they can tell WE THE PEOPLE what the truth is.
What are Trump, McConnell and the Repugnants afraid of WE THE PEOPLE finding out?
IF THERE WAS NOTHING TO HIDE THEY WOULDN'T BE HIDING SOMETHING.
cancel2 2022 (01-13-2020)
cancel2 2022 (01-13-2020)
cancel2 2022 (01-12-2020)
domer76 (01-13-2020)
cancel2 2022 (01-13-2020)
domer76 (01-13-2020)
Never said Turley was political, didn't even imply such, rather that his line of logic as displayed in the House and here in the article posted is that the impeachment articles are actually going to get a fair hearing in the Senate, that an actual trial is going to occur. Everyone knows that was never going to happen, Mitch just comfirmed the obvious
Again, it is anything but a blunder by Pelosi, she has cemented the image of the Senate proceedings as anything but a trial, and Mitch will largely confirm that image. She knew Trump would never allow it to be an actual trial in the Senate, that consequently, that the real trial is in the public view
And Trump is America's third impeached President, regardless of what Rudi is pushing now, no matter want occurs, Trump is the third impeached President and will go down in history as such
domer76 (01-13-2020)
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