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Thread: Sweden’s “Third Way” Mixed Economy Model

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine View Post
    I provided a link for you, to show they are more capitalist than socialist, so do what you want with that, just keep your democratic socialism out of my country!
    Then lets adopt the policies of Sweden and forget about what you want to label them. You obviously cannot refute the Scandinavian model is successful and hugely admired.


    Requiring your explanation: the contradiction as to why you conservatives called Barack Obama a "socialist" for the better part of a decade,
    but somehow the very generous social welfare states of Scandinavia are not socialist.


    Also requiring explanation, exactly what nations were conservatives referring to when they spent decades calling western Europe "socialist"???

    >> https://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...19#post2926319

    Leading Republicans Refer to Western Europe as "Socialists"
    Lately it seems that not a day goes by without a Republican presidential candidate portraying Europe as a socialist nightmare. Mitt Romney, Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum paint a picture of the Old World as unfree, strangulated by bureaucratic and inefficient welfare systems, and unable to reform and modernize. To these Republicans, Europe seems to be the antipode to everything America is meant to be.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.310f3f267a8a

    Leading Republicans Call Western Europe "Socialist"
    Newt Gingrich has constantly accused the president of being a "European Socialist", often adding in a reference to an all-but-forgotten community activist from Chicago, who died in 1972, but whose Democratic-leaning writings are thought to have influenced the current president
    "I am for the Declaration of Independence; he is for the writing of Saul Alinsky. I am for the Constitution; he is for European socialism," Mr Gingrich told voters in Florida last week.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16583813

    Bill O'Reilly noted rightwing blowhard: Western Europe is basically socialist
    "I received a letter from Rhonda Hallett who lives in Jacksonville, North Carolina asking me to define Bernie's doctrine of Democratic socialism. Ok. That's basically what some countries in western Europe have, a political system that limits personal income through taxation in return for cradle to grave payouts from the governments. That's the trade."
    http://nation.foxnews.com/2016/02/14...atic-socialism

    Mike Pence is on record referring to western Europe as "socialist".
    when Representative Mike Pence, Republican of Indiana, denounced “European-style socialism,” in his speech at the conference on Thursday, the jeers from the crowd did not exactly signal an openness to debate it on the merits.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/w...leibovich.html

    European socialism taking root in US, Fox News's Stuart Varney says
    https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics...us-varney-says


    https://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...19#post2926319

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    Hello Cypress,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Rightwingers won't even try to refute that the Scandinavian hybrid model is one the most successful and admired economic systems in human history.

    Of the myriad of excuses they assert for why we cannot emulate it is their claim the system only works for homogenous societies.

    Aka, white societies.

    It is another example of the rightwing telegraphing their racism. Because they clearly do not think dark people can be trusted to be endowed with a generous social welfare state




    Adding here that, among thread banned Rightwing trump boot-lickers, my threads are extremely popular, and these rightwing dunces clearly find my writing extremely interesting. Given how they lurk my threads, read what I write, and frequently create copy cat threads. Some people might think its creepy - I consider a badge of honor that dunces I generally ignore follow me around and keep up to date on my writing.
    Getting groans and replies from people you refuse to even talk to is totally a badge of honor. It is acknowledgement that what you are saying is getting to them. If you weren't hitting the mark they wouldn't bother.

    Just like in this case.

    Excellent observation about the racist coded term 'homogenous societies.'

    What a lame argument. People are people. There is no reason that good policy won't work for people.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Cypress,



    Getting groans and replies from people you refuse to even talk to is totally a badge of honor. It is acknowledgement that what you are saying is getting to them. If you weren't hitting the mark they wouldn't bother.

    Just like in this case.

    Excellent observation about the racist coded term 'homogenous societies.'

    What a lame argument. People are people. There is no reason that good policy won't work for people.
    For starters dude your handle says Diversity Makes Greatness so now you are coming out in support of non diverse countries and suggesting we be like them?

    There is nothing racially coded about discussing homogeneous countries. Japan and North & South Korea are the most homogeneous countries in the world. Yet you're claiming its racist to acknowledge that simple fact? Every country has its own issues, no country is perfect, but the homogeneous nature plays a major role in their politics and policies. And homogeneous countries have racial and immigration issues themselves. I know you guys love calling others racist but this is a simple acknowledgement of their realities. (You'll also notice my response was about far more than just the homogeneous nature of Sweden)
    Last edited by cawacko; 02-19-2020 at 01:54 PM.

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    Hello cawacko,

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    For starters dude your handle says Diversity Makes Greatness so now you are coming out in support of non diverse countries and suggesting we be like them?
    If you have to try to get cute with another poster's handle and make some lame and incorrect predicated stretch of an observation, (not a quote,) as a way of rationalizing your own perception of politics, it is not very suggestive that you have a strong and valid argument in support of your beliefs. Because if you did? You would use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    There is nothing racially coded about discussing homogeneous countries. Japan and North & South Korea are the most homogeneous countries in the world. Yet you're claiming its racist to acknowledge that simple fact?
    We have zero problem acknowledging that fact. We are well beyond that point by quite some distance. What we are looking for is some correlation linking homogeneousness with the success of a hybrid economy. What does it matter of all the participants in the plan are of one race? Why can this hybrid economy work for a homogeneous group, but not for a mixed-race group? That's what you have not explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Every country has its own issues, no country is perfect, but the homogeneous nature plays a major role in their politics and policies. And homogeneous countries have racial and immigration issues themselves. I know you guys love calling others racist but this is a simple acknowledgement of their realities. (You'll also notice my response was about far more than just the homogeneous nature of Sweden)
    OK, so now that's adding in another factor. Are you now saying their success in implementing a successful hybrid economy is dependent upon more than simply the one prerequisite of a homogeneous society? Because if that's the case, then that sort of tosses out the homogeneous society argument as completely valid.

    No problem. OK, so what are these other factors and why are they only possible in other countries, but not repeatable in the USA? We would be seriously interested to know that. Can you please tell us?
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Cypress,



    Getting groans and replies from people you refuse to even talk to is totally a badge of honor. It is acknowledgement that what you are saying is getting to them. If you weren't hitting the mark they wouldn't bother.

    Just like in this case.

    Excellent observation about the racist coded term 'homogenous societies.'

    What a lame argument
    . People are people. There is no reason that good policy won't work for people.
    The "you need to have a homogenous society to have a social welfare state!" is a flat out admission that the social welfare states liberals would like to emulate are universally admired and very successful.

    Which contradicts the attempted conflation of American liberals with Soviet totalitarianism rightwingers would like to portray.

    Homogeneity is one of the myriad of excuses the rightwing will trot out whenever they feel like they are utterly losing the argument on the basis of socio-economics, justice, and the general welfare.

    I would like to know what and where this peer-reviewed, scientific basis of a magical number measuring homogeneity is; what is this magical threshold below which a society is not "allowed" to have a generous social welfare state.

    Even Denmark, Finland, and Sweden and not purely homogenous. They have immigrants and ethnic groups within their nations.

    Canada is an even more dramatic example of a fairly generous social welfare state which has a high proportion of immigrants and is relatively ethnically diverse. But even with that diversity, they somehow manage to have a fairly generous social welfare state.

    The bottom line is, there is no "magical threshold number" of homogeneity which would prevent a society from having a generous social welfare state. It is just a poorly-designed excuse the rightwing floats out there, and it is not based on anything credibly scientific which is widely accepted and valid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello cawacko,



    If you have to try to get cute with another poster's handle and make some lame and incorrect predicated stretch of an observation, (not a quote,) as a way of rationalizing your own perception of politics, it is not very suggestive that you have a strong and valid argument in support of your beliefs. Because if you did? You would use it.



    We have zero problem acknowledging that fact. We are well beyond that point by quite some distance. What we are looking for is some correlation linking homogeneousness with the success of a hybrid economy. What does it matter of all the participants in the plan are of one race? Why can this hybrid economy work for a homogeneous group, but not for a mixed-race group? That's what you have not explained.



    OK, so now that's adding in another factor. Are you now saying their success in implementing a successful hybrid economy is dependent upon more than simply the one prerequisite of a homogeneous society? Because if that's the case, then that sort of tosses out the homogeneous society argument as completely valid.

    No problem. OK, so what are these other factors and why are they only possible in other countries, but not repeatable in the USA? We would be seriously interested to know that. Can you please tell us?
    My answer is basically the same as my original one ITT. Because of our roles in the world and our use of the military it is apples and oranges comparing Sweden and the U.S. Basically could Sweden do everything it does today if it was forced to spend on the military like we are and play the same role we do? No it couldn't. So on an internet chat board its easy to say we should just be like Finland, Norway or Sweden. But in the real world it's not that simple. And you are talking about countries the size of the Bay Area. Again, it's not apples to apples.

    And America's strength is its diversity and that we have people from all over the world who come here. That leads to a very different local dynamic than homogeneous countries. Now you can tell me that's a different discussion but they all have major issues themselves dealing with it and (aging) demographics is the biggest among them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Even Denmark, Finland, and Sweden and not purely homogenous. They have immigrants and ethnic groups within their nations.

    Canada is an even more dramatic example of a fairly generous social welfare state which has a high proportion of immigrants and is relatively ethnically diverse. But even with that diversity, they somehow manage to have a fairly generous social welfare state.
    No country is purely homogeneous, but Canada and the European countries are homogeneous enough to make universal healthcare work. Even Canada is over 70% white.
    In addition to America being too diverse, the Democrats who want more affordable healthcare also want open borders and mass third world immigration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    No country is purely homogeneous, but Canada and the European countries are homogeneous enough to make universal healthcare work. Even Canada is over 70% white.
    In addition to America being too diverse, the Democrats who want more affordable healthcare also want open borders and mass third world immigration.
    So being 70 percent white is the magical threshold at which a nation is allowed to have a generous social welfare state?

    Where is the body of widely accepted, peer reviewed research which supports the assertion of a magical 70 percent barrier which cannot be crossed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    So being 70 percent white is the magical threshold at which a nation is allowed to have a generous social welfare state?

    Where is the body of widely accepted, peer reviewed research which supports the assertion of a magical 70 percent barrier which cannot be crossed?
    I didn't say there is a magic number. I'm saying that the more "diversity" a country has, the harder it is to have generous welfare policies. At 70%, Canada is still a pretty homogeneous country. So it doesn't surprise me that they've been able to make the welfare state work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    I didn't say there is a magic number. I'm saying that the more "diversity" a country has, the harder it is to have generous welfare policies. At 70%, Canada is still a pretty homogeneous country. So it doesn't surprise me that they've been able to make the welfare state work.
    There is no magical threshold or ratio of white people when one is allowed to have a generous social welfare state.

    The real reason a generous social welfare state works is when labor and collective bargaining is robust, widespread, and on an equal footing with the corporatists.

    Sweden has a long history of a robust labor movement which has widespread participation by citizens. I also do not think it hurts that Scandinavia has a history of reasonably equal rights for women and a political system where women are strongly invested. Because an egalitarian society based on justice and social equality has a much higher likelihood of achieving an advanced social welfare state.

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    Hello cawacko,

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    My answer is basically the same as my original one ITT. Because of our roles in the world and our use of the military it is apples and oranges comparing Sweden and the U.S. Basically could Sweden do everything it does today if it was forced to spend on the military like we are and play the same role we do? No it couldn't.
    Got it. And the message is clear. It is not the homogeneity which makes the hybrid economy possible there but not here. We have to stop spending so much on a bloated military so we can spend more on taking care of our society. It should also be noted that if we tax our rich more we can grow our society and our economy even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    So on an internet chat board its easy to say we should just be like Finland, Norway or Sweden. But in the real world it's not that simple. And you are talking about countries the size of the Bay Area. Again, it's not apples to apples.
    On an internet chat board it is easy for you to claim I am saying things I never actually said. All you have to do is type the false words. There is no requirement for you to be accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    And America's strength is its diversity and that we have people from all over the world who come here. That leads to a very different local dynamic than homogeneous countries. Now you can tell me that's a different discussion but they all have major issues themselves dealing with it and (aging) demographics is the biggest among them.
    The strength of our diversity is an asset. It allows us to examine more and varied viewpoints, to take into consideration more ideas. Our way of thinking is more complete and all-encompassing. When we shut out different positive ideas we cut ourselves off from potential greatness. If we wish to create a system which utilizes things we have observed from all around the globe, we have the capacity to do that on a grander scale than other countries.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello cawacko,



    Got it. And the message is clear. It is not the homogeneity which makes the hybrid economy possible there but not here. We have to stop spending so much on a bloated military so we can spend more on taking care of our society. It should also be noted that if we tax our rich more we can grow our society and our economy even more.



    On an internet chat board it is easy for you to claim I am saying things I never actually said. All you have to do is type the false words. There is no requirement for you to be accurate.



    The strength of our diversity is an asset. It allows us to examine more and varied viewpoints, to take into consideration more ideas. Our way of thinking is more complete and all-encompassing. When we shut out different positive ideas we cut ourselves off from potential greatness. If we wish to create a system which utilizes things we have observed from all around the globe, we have the capacity to do that on a grander scale than other countries.
    There is a definite element to the homogeneity that makes their model possible. I don't spend a whole lot of time studying Finland, Norway, Sweden, North & South Korea and Japan but I know enough to know that it plays a role. Stone By Stone is the one who wants the ethno socialist state, he can go into the details of it.

    I said in my response that just like in business we can and should always look at best practices. And that's cities looking at other cities, states looking at other states or countries looking at other countries. But saying we should spend less on the military doesn't change the fundamental nature of the U.S.'s role in the world. The world as we know it would not exist if the U.S. spent what Sweden does on its military and played the same role in the world. But if that's what you want there are Trump supporters (on this board) who believe the U.S. should spend no money on bases or anything else military wise outside our borders. You can find bi-partisan agreement.

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    Why is it all these "discussions" regarding socialism come down to an either/or as if the two were mutually exclusive?

    As I've said before, the US has been part socialist since the 19th Century, if not before, every nation in the world has a mixed economy, intiating a single payer health care system in the US, or some model of the same, doesn't mean the US is abondoning capitalism, opening up gulags, eliminating private propriety, nationalizing industries, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Why is it all these "discussions" regarding socialism come down to an either/or as if the two were mutually exclusive?

    As I've said before, the US has been part socialist since the 19th Century, if not before, every nation in the world has a mixed economy, intiating a single payer health care system in the US, or some model of the same, doesn't mean the US is abondoning capitalism, opening up gulags, eliminating private propriety, nationalizing industries, etc.
    The rightwing has been trained like Pavlovian dogs by their conservative media to attempt to conflate liberals, progressives, democratic socialists with totalitarian communism, the GULAG, Vladimir Lenin, and Joseph Stalin.

    It is obvious why they attempt to do that. I have always been sure they know they are lying and being dishonest, it is just part and parcel of the political strategy of a party that has no actual ideas of their own.

    That is also why they fly into a panic whenever anyone mentions that would should learn from Norway and Sweden. Because the rightwing is fully aware those Scandinavian models are the most universally admired socio-economic systems in human history, and puts to shame any talk of a deregulated, every-man-for-himself Austrian school of economics, rightwing economic fantasy. .

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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Why is it all these "discussions" regarding socialism come down to an either/or as if the two were mutually exclusive?

    As I've said before, the US has been part socialist since the 19th Century, if not before, every nation in the world has a mixed economy, intiating a single payer health care system in the US, or some model of the same, doesn't mean the US is abondoning capitalism, opening up gulags, eliminating private propriety, nationalizing industries, etc.
    In certain American progressive circles the northern-European welfare state has been embraced as their ideal. That's not what we have in America, at least not nearly to their degree. At the end of the day you can label it whatever you want but that's what is being discussed here.

    And feel free to blame right-wingers for us not having it and call us racist but the reality is even Hillary Clinton said in a debate with Bernie that we are not Norway. So progressives don't even have full buy in from people who generally share their political beliefs.

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