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Thread: Sweden’s “Third Way” Mixed Economy Model

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    There is no magical threshold or ratio of white people when one is allowed to have a generous social welfare state.
    I know, I'm not arguing there is. What I'm saying is that the more diversity a country has, the more difficult it is to have a generous welfare state. Canada is still a little over 70% white, which makes it way more homogeneous than America.
    Social Democracy is possible in America, but it's going to be way harder to achieve, and perhaps even harder to maintain.

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    Hello Cypress,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    So being 70 percent white is the magical threshold at which a nation is allowed to have a generous social welfare state?

    Where is the body of widely accepted, peer reviewed research which supports the assertion of a magical 70 percent barrier which cannot be crossed?
    Well, you have to understand. Such views are predicated on the propaganda that immigrants are a burden on the economy. Naturally, they are not going to want to see the peer-reviewed studies which show that immigrants actually cause a net contribution to the economy, and even begin businesses and create some jobs of their own!

    Generally, immigrants, in reality, tend to be more motivated to work than a lot of rather unmotivated Americans, who may have come from a troubled childhood, without good role-model parenting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    I know, I'm not arguing there is. What I'm saying is that the more diversity a country has, the more difficult it is to have a generous welfare state. Canada is still a little over 70% white, which makes it way more homogeneous than America.
    Social Democracy is possible in America, but it's going to be way harder to achieve, and perhaps even harder to maintain.
    I do not think skin color, religion, eye color, ethnicity should have anything to do in theory with the establishment of generous social welfare state.

    There is a political problem in that rightwing politicans use ethnic diversity to create fear, paranoia, resentment, division, which has to be dealt with.

    But, the path towards a generous social welfare state begins first and foremost with robust and well organized trade and labor unions, a commitment to equality and the general welfare, and a political system based on justice and the rule of law.

    Sweden has a long-standing social system of well organized and robust labor unions and widespread participation in collective bargaining. The interests of labor, families, and women have to be taken strongly into account by industrialists and by the government. And the strength of unions, of labor rights, and the commensurate commitment to the general welfare is why I believe Sweden has a generous social welfare state. It is not because they are blonde and blue eyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Cypress,



    Well, you have to understand. Such views are predicated on the propaganda that immigrants are a burden on the economy. Naturally, they are not going to want to see the peer-reviewed studies which show that immigrants actually cause a net contribution to the economy, and even begin businesses and create some jobs of their own!

    Generally, immigrants, in reality, tend to be more motivated to work than a lot of rather unmotivated Americans, who may have come from a troubled childhood, without good role-model parenting.
    Nice work

    Without socialism, bourgeois practices and the egotistical principle of private ownership gave rise to the "people of the abyss" described by Jack London and earlier by Engels.

    Only the competition with socialism and the pressure of the working class made possible the social progress of the twentieth century and, all the more, will insure the now inevitable process of rapprochement of the two systems. It took socialism to raise the meaning of labor to the heights of a moral feat. Before the advent of socialism, national egotism gave rise to colonial oppression, nationalism, and racism. By now it has become clear that victory is on the side of the humanistic, international approach.

    The capitalist world could not help giving birth to the socialist, but now the socialist world should not seek to destroy by force the ground from which it grew. Under the present conditions this would be tantamount to the suicide of mankind. Socialism should ennoble that ground by its example and other indirect forms of pressure and then merge with it.

    - Andrei Sakharov, eminent Soviet-Russian nuclear physicist, dissident and human rights activist
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    In certain American progressive circles the northern-European welfare state has been embraced as their ideal. That's not what we have in America, at least not nearly to their degree. At the end of the day you can label it whatever you want but that's what is being discussed here.

    And feel free to blame right-wingers for us not having it and call us racist but the reality is even Hillary Clinton said in a debate with Bernie that we are not Norway. So progressives don't even have full buy in from people who generally share their political beliefs.
    That is not quite accurate, what those "progressives" do is rebutal with the Scandanvian countries when someone on the right blanketly employs Venezuela as the example of socialism

    And I never said anyone was racist, rather that socialism and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive as is often portrayed by the right, Ameircan History validates that point

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    I know, I'm not arguing there is. What I'm saying is that the more diversity a country has, the more difficult it is to have a generous welfare state. Canada is still a little over 70% white, which makes it way more homogeneous than America.
    Social Democracy is possible in America, but it's going to be way harder to achieve, and perhaps even harder to maintain.
    That makes very little sense. The only problem we might face is the expense being more because we are a country of excess that leads to health problems. Another thing is our shill FDA that doesn't help much. We still have many things in our food that other countries have banned a way back due to health concerns. Or are you claiming it's just easier because people of the same race would get along better? That isn't exactly true either. Our problem with that is because of our countries history. Other countries have little issue with integrated blacks. There are a few hiccups religiously but not so much racially.

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    The Lessons-Learned from Sweden is that a generous social welfare state does not need to lead to lazy and unproductive workers, who have a sense of entitlement.

    The key finding from Scandinavia is that well-organized labor will work productively and effectively, as long as they feel they are being treated fairly by business, government, and society. I have never heard anyone complain about shoddy and second-rate Swedish products.


    After World War II, the Social Democratic–led governments initiated several key policies to establish the Swedish economic system as a mixed economy. Because the Swedish Social Democratic Party was founded and supported by the Trade Union Federation, its most important objective was a high rate of employment. So, the government was an active user of traditional Keynesian fiscal and monetary policies to stimulate economic growth and low rates of unemployment.

    But to achieve high levels of employment, the Swedish governments went far beyond standard Keynesian demand management. The Swedish government pursued active labor market policies. These policies were designed to stimulate and support employment, especially when private market demand might be diminishing. Labor market polices included providing government subsidies to private employers to retain workers that might have otherwise been let go.

    Because Swedish workers and employers were so well organized, a feature of the Swedish labor market was consensus bargaining and comprehensive labor agreements on wages and working conditions—that every worker gets and thinks is fair. This was especially important due to the dependence of the Swedish economy on exports.

    One of the primary findings of labor market research in the realm of efficiency wage theory is that workers will work effectively, and well, if they think they’re being treated fairly. Swedish workers are paid well, so it’s essential that they should also be very productive, if their products are to remain competitive on the world market.


    Source citation: Professor Edward F. Stuart, Northeastern Illinois University

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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    That is not quite accurate, what those "progressives" do is rebutal with the Scandanvian countries when someone on the right blanketly employs Venezuela as the example of socialism

    And I never said anyone was racist, rather that socialism and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive as is often portrayed by the right, Ameircan History validates that point
    This thread, Bernie and others aren't using Sweden, Norway, Finland as a rebuttal they're using it for they would like to see in America.

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    Hello cawacko,

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    This thread, Bernie and others aren't using Sweden, Norway, Finland as a rebuttal they're using it for they would like to see in America.
    I hear Bernie refer to a lot of other countries, drawing one good idea from here, another from there. Studying their results, their life expectancy, their access to health care, education, child care, employment, vacations, housing, retirement... All these things are solved on a mass scale. People don't even have to worry about them. They just live their lives and concentrate on doing a good job. Sure, they don't work as many hours per year as Americans do (hundreds less,) but they still have great lives, and who wouldn't like to have 12 weeks paid vacation every year? Now that sounds like a plan to get some work done and enjoy life too. No wonder they are happier than Americans. And no wonder Bernie is looking to them for ideas. Smart man.
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    As I have looked at these governments I've only found one real issue. It's an issue that's good in ways but unfortunate. People have a longer life expectancy and you end up with an older population that's having fewer kids. You start to have fewer people paying in. That the biggest issue I've noted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    As I have looked at these governments I've only found one real issue. It's an issue that's good in ways but unfortunate. People have a longer life expectancy and you end up with an older population that's having fewer kids. You start to have fewer people paying in. That the biggest issue I've noted.
    That is why western European nations have allowed increased immigration in recent years. They know their aging population and low birth rates cannot sustain a generous Kenyan-Marxist welfare state.

    It will be former Somalis, Algerians, Nigerians, Armenians, and Pakistanis paying for the retirement and health care of elderly Europeans

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello cawacko,



    I hear Bernie refer to a lot of other countries, drawing one good idea from here, another from there. Studying their results, their life expectancy, their access to health care, education, child care, employment, vacations, housing, retirement... All these things are solved on a mass scale. People don't even have to worry about them. They just live their lives and concentrate on doing a good job. Sure, they don't work as many hours per year as Americans do (hundreds less,) but they still have great lives, and who wouldn't like to have 12 weeks paid vacation every year? Now that sounds like a plan to get some work done and enjoy life too. No wonder they are happier than Americans. And no wonder Bernie is looking to them for ideas. Smart man.
    I'd love to make a bunch of money and be told I could take a quarter of the year off. But it doesn't fly making that national government policy. There are trade offs for everything and money doesn't grow on trees. So in a perfect world it would be great to say you don't pay for housing, health care or education and you get bunch of time off from work. But we don't live in a perfect world nor will we ever. So there are always trade offs. And the U.S. didn't become the richest country on the planet via the Norway, Sweden or Finland model.

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    Hello cawacko,

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    I'd love to make a bunch of money and be told I could take a quarter of the year off. But it doesn't fly making that national government policy. There are trade offs for everything and money doesn't grow on trees. So in a perfect world it would be great to say you don't pay for housing, health care or education and you get bunch of time off from work. But we don't live in a perfect world nor will we ever. [Unless we create it] So there are always trade offs. And the U.S. didn't become the richest country on the planet via the Norway, Sweden or Finland model.
    What good is it to be the richest country on the planet if our average living conditions and life expectancy lag(s) behind those of other industrialized countries?

    The people in Europe didn't end up with yearly 12 week paid vacations because they let the government ram it down their throats. No! it was the people who told the government what they wanted. And the government better listen because when they go on strike EVERYTHING shuts down.

    We're so polarized by the power of big money PR that we can't stop partisan fighting long enough to band together for some worthwhile changes that would benefit everybody (except the rich.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    I'd love to make a bunch of money and be told I could take a quarter of the year off. But it doesn't fly making that national government policy. There are trade offs for everything and money doesn't grow on trees. So in a perfect world it would be great to say you don't pay for housing, health care or education and you get bunch of time off from work. But we don't live in a perfect world nor will we ever. So there are always trade offs. And the U.S. didn't become the richest country on the planet via the Norway, Sweden or Finland model.
    Where did you not having to work or pay for housing come from? That doesn't actually happen except being disabled on the work part. So you are proud of a country with top earners squatting on wealth while getting tax breaks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    Where did you not having to work or pay for housing come from? That doesn't actually happen except being disabled on the work part. So you are proud of a country with top earners squatting on wealth while getting tax breaks?
    From his post:

    "Sure, they don't work as many hours per year as Americans do (hundreds less,) but they still have great lives, and who wouldn't like to have 12 weeks paid vacation every year?"

    As far as housing there are Housing Is A Human Right groups that support free or government subsidized housing.

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