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Thread: Sweden’s “Third Way” Mixed Economy Model

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    From his post:

    "Sure, they don't work as many hours per year as Americans do (hundreds less,) but they still have great lives, and who wouldn't like to have 12 weeks paid vacation every year?"

    As far as housing there are Housing Is A Human Right groups that support free or government subsidized housing.
    In the early 21st century, more than half of Swedish households lived in apartments, while the remainder lived in houses. At the turn of the century, the average Swedish household spent about one-fourth of its disposable income on rent. Housing stock is not evenly distributed throughout the country. In some regions, such as the greater Stockholm area, housing is at a premium, while in other smaller and medium-sized communities, there is a surplus of housing stock.

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Swe...cess#ref259786

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    In the early 21st century, more than half of Swedish households lived in apartments, while the remainder lived in houses. At the turn of the century, the average Swedish household spent about one-fourth of its disposable income on rent. Housing stock is not evenly distributed throughout the country. In some regions, such as the greater Stockholm area, housing is at a premium, while in other smaller and medium-sized communities, there is a surplus of housing stock.

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Swe...cess#ref259786
    Ok. What's the take away from this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello cawacko,



    What good is it to be the richest country on the planet if our average living conditions and life expectancy lag(s) behind those of other industrialized countries?

    The people in Europe didn't end up with yearly 12 week paid vacations because they let the government ram it down their throats. No! it was the people who told the government what they wanted. And the government better listen because when they go on strike EVERYTHING shuts down.

    We're so polarized by the power of big money PR that we can't stop partisan fighting long enough to band together for some worthwhile changes that would benefit everybody (except the rich.)
    We have basically have seen the goal posts moved the point where conservatives have overtly admitted that Scandinavia is a pleasant place to live, that it has probably the most widely admired socio-economic system in human history, but we cannot emulate that model here because to do so would be to admit that liberals, progressives, and social democrats were right all along.

    It seems like only yesterday conservatives were calling western Europe socialist hellholes!

    Leading Republicans refer to western Europeans as "socialists" >> https://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...19#post2926319

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    Hello Cypress,

    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    We have basically have seen the goal posts moved the point where conservatives have overtly admitted that Scandinavia is a pleasant place to live, that it has probably the most widely admired socio-economic system in human history, but we cannot emulate that model here because to do so would be to admit that liberals, progressives, and social democrats were right all along.

    It seems like only yesterday conservatives were calling western Europe socialist hellholes!

    Leading Republicans refer to western Europeans as "socialists" >> https://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...19#post2926319
    The goal posts are always moved when you back a Republican into a corner. Either that or they insult you in a nasty way like a spoiled brat overturning the gameboard because they are losing. Since I don't talk to anyone who has shown they will insult me, I more often see the moving goal posts.

    It can be like a merry go round with them.

    Allow me to paraphrase the ever-changing, pro capitalism, pro rich business owner view, straight from the Republican party:

    'We don't want socialism like Venezuela because it fails every time it has ever been tried.'


    Socialism is doing fine for people in Europe.

    'Socialism has not failed in Europe because that's not really socialism.'

    Actually, it is the very socialism you have been arguing against.

    'We don't want the socialism of Europe because that only works for homogeneous societies.'

    As long as I am putting words in people's mouths, let's just try the truth on for size, shall we? (This is fun...)

    'We don't want socialism because we are selfish and we don't want to pay higher taxes even though we can easily afford it without even impacting our lifestyle on little bit.'

    I have nothing to add to that.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Cypress,



    The goal posts are always moved when you back a Republican into a corner. Either that or they insult you in a nasty way like a spoiled brat overturning the gameboard because they are losing. Since I don't talk to anyone who has shown they will insult me, I more often see the moving goal posts.

    It can be like a merry go round with them.

    Allow me to paraphrase the ever-changing, pro capitalism, pro rich business owner view, straight from the Republican party:

    'We don't want socialism like Venezuela because it fails every time it has ever been tried.'


    Socialism is doing fine for people in Europe.

    'Socialism has not failed in Europe because that's not really socialism.'

    Actually, it is the very socialism you have been arguing against.

    'We don't want the socialism of Europe because that only works for homogeneous societies.'

    As long as I am putting words in people's mouths, let's just try the truth on for size, shall we? (This is fun...)

    'We don't want socialism because we are selfish and we don't want to pay higher taxes even though we can easily afford it without even impacting our lifestyle on little bit.'

    I have nothing to add to that.
    If one put's themselves in the shoes of a conservative, one can see why they are frantic to conflate American and European liberals and social democrats with totalitarian communism, Vladimir Lenin, the GULAG, and Fidel Castro's Latin American leftism.

    Because once you start talking about the Scandinavian model of 10 weeks of paid vacation, paid maternity leave, mandatory paid sick leave, subsidized child day care, and single payer universal health care, conservatives usually go into panic mode. The Vladimir Lenin comparisons just do not cut the mustard.

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    Hello anonymoose,

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymoose View Post
    Thanks. Couldn't have said it better. But the moonbats here will never acknowledge that.
    I lived in Germany for three yrs, Italy for one. Believe me, it's better here for those "willing" to work.
    It is best here for those who were born into big money.

    It is not better here for one who is willing to work very hard, but lacks the credentials to get a well-paying job. Many very hard working Americans can't afford the basics. These hard working Americans, who often work very long hours at low paying jobs, with no benefits, WISH they had life as good as people in Europe.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello cawacko,



    I hear Bernie refer to a lot of other countries, drawing one good idea from here, another from there. Studying their results, their life expectancy, their access to health care, education, child care, employment, vacations, housing, retirement... All these things are solved on a mass scale. People don't even have to worry about them. They just live their lives and concentrate on doing a good job. Sure, they don't work as many hours per year as Americans do (hundreds less,) but they still have great lives, and who wouldn't like to have 12 weeks paid vacation every year? Now that sounds like a plan to get some work done and enjoy life too. No wonder they are happier than Americans. And no wonder Bernie is looking to them for ideas. Smart man.
    Here's a two year old article on the supposed happiness level in Norway. You guys called me racist for saying they are homogeneous countries but here's an outsider saying the exact same thing.


    Is Life in Norway as Happy as It's Cracked Up to Be?

    Freedom, tolerance and happiness are important values there, but you can expect to enjoy them only if you're Norwegian.


    For progressives around the world, it has become almost a pastime to romanticise the quasi-socialist Scandinavian countries. Nations such as Norway, Finland and Sweden are – to many – not only examples of wealth and well-being but also bastions of social progress and tolerance.

    Norway, in particular, consistently leads the world in quality of life and happiness, and the country is responding compassionately to the Syrian refugee crisis, unlike its many critics in Europe. But is life in Norway really so great?

    I'm not so sure.

    As an Australian who worked in Oslo for three years, I found that while freedom, tolerance and happiness are indeed important values there, you can expect to enjoy them only if you're Norwegian.

    You're welcome?

    After the the 2011 mass shooting by Anders Breivik, which he carried out in the name of rejecting a "Muslim colonization" of Europe, Norway emerged determined to defy xenophobia.

    In 2015, during the height of the European refugee crisis, the country, which has a population of 5.2 million, considered some 31,000 asylum cases, a national record. And in contrast to most European countries, Norway extends full social support and protections to all asylees while they await a ruling.

    Still, Norway's far-right Progress Party – to which Breivik belonged in his youth and which holds 29 seats in parliament – has fought to roll back migration and benefits.

    Since 2015, Integration Minister Sylvi Listhaug has pursued aggressive restrictions on immigration, particularly for Muslims. As a result, the country deported a record number of migrants in 2016, including minors between the ages of 16 and 18, as per new restrictions.

    A history of exclusion


    His fear-mongering taps into a dark strain of Norwegian history. As recently as 1977, the Norwegian government forcibly sterilized members of its Romani minority population.


    Such policies also echo Norway's treatment of its indigenous population, which I have been studying. Indeed, it seems forgotten in post-colonial societies that Norwegian history is blighted with atrocities against the native Sámi.

    Until the second half of the 20th century, the Norwegian government forcibly seized Sámi lands in middle and northern Norway and sought to eradicate Sámi culture. A policy of Norweginisation, known as "fornorsking," meant that Sámi children were sent to Norwegian boarding schools, where they were beaten for speaking their native language.

    The Sámi were also denied the right to purchase property if they could not speak Norwegian. Today, Sámi people are still suppressed by Norwegian policy and experience ten times more discrimination than ethnic Norwegians.

    Many Sámi live throughout the country, and though their right to an education in Sámi and to the use of their language for public purposes has now been recognized, these rights are enjoyed only in small municipalities in the rural north that have been designated as Sámi territories.

    Generally speaking, to participate in Norway's society and economy, you must forgo being and speaking Sámi.

    While popular and even academic writing in Norway describes immigrants from the Middle East as speaking "kebab Norwegian," my 2016 analysis of online comments to Sámi-themed news found a similarly pervasive prejudice.

    The analysis shows that Norwegians argue that the Sámi threaten the purity of Norwegian ethnicity and way of life. Some say Sámi cannot be seen as Norwegian citizens, do not deserve indigenous status and have invented their historic oppression.

    In another display of discrimination, when Tromsø, the major town of the far north, considered designating itself a Sámi zone, opposing voices were filled with hate. Opponents even fired bullets at bilingual signs to express displeasure.

    Assimilation nation

    This racist undercurrent in Norway may derive from an American-style exceptionalism in Norway, whereby Norwegians are told and truly believe that they are world leaders in social policy.

    But to survive in Norway, those of a non-Norwegian culture are expected to adopt a Norwegian world view. The compulsory language courses given to migrants really brings that message home. Its curriculum celebrates Norway but presents almost hegemonic views on nearly everything else, from alcohol consumption to social values and Norwegian history.

    The Sámi and Romani are almost entirely absent from the language-course curriculum.

    To suggest that all is bad in Norway would be false. I, too, have been thankful for Norway's affordable health care and generous leave entitlements. And the upcoming parliamentary election, to be held in September 2017, presents an opportunity for a broader change, including on immigration.

    But not all is rosy in the Norwegian utopia. Next time someone extols the virtues of this "perfect" Scandinavian society, remind them that the Norwegian dream is not available to all.

    This article was written by Nathan John Albury, research fellow at the University of Oslo, for The Conversation on July 24. It is republished with permission.


    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...acked-up-to-be

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Ok. What's the take away from this?
    That housing is pretty much the same purchase there that it is here. The big difference is government oversight to create affordable housing developments rather than companies and investors building up everywhere they can. When the companies go in instead they tend to push the poorer out of the housing market with the premiums they charge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Here's a two year old article on the supposed happiness level in Norway. You guys called me racist for saying they are homogeneous countries but here's an outsider saying the exact same thing.


    Is Life in Norway as Happy as It's Cracked Up to Be?

    Freedom, tolerance and happiness are important values there, but you can expect to enjoy them only if you're Norwegian.


    For progressives around the world, it has become almost a pastime to romanticise the quasi-socialist Scandinavian countries. Nations such as Norway, Finland and Sweden are – to many – not only examples of wealth and well-being but also bastions of social progress and tolerance.

    Norway, in particular, consistently leads the world in quality of life and happiness, and the country is responding compassionately to the Syrian refugee crisis, unlike its many critics in Europe. But is life in Norway really so great?

    I'm not so sure.

    As an Australian who worked in Oslo for three years, I found that while freedom, tolerance and happiness are indeed important values there, you can expect to enjoy them only if you're Norwegian.

    You're welcome?

    After the the 2011 mass shooting by Anders Breivik, which he carried out in the name of rejecting a "Muslim colonization" of Europe, Norway emerged determined to defy xenophobia.

    In 2015, during the height of the European refugee crisis, the country, which has a population of 5.2 million, considered some 31,000 asylum cases, a national record. And in contrast to most European countries, Norway extends full social support and protections to all asylees while they await a ruling.

    Still, Norway's far-right Progress Party – to which Breivik belonged in his youth and which holds 29 seats in parliament – has fought to roll back migration and benefits.

    Since 2015, Integration Minister Sylvi Listhaug has pursued aggressive restrictions on immigration, particularly for Muslims. As a result, the country deported a record number of migrants in 2016, including minors between the ages of 16 and 18, as per new restrictions.

    A history of exclusion


    His fear-mongering taps into a dark strain of Norwegian history. As recently as 1977, the Norwegian government forcibly sterilized members of its Romani minority population.


    Such policies also echo Norway's treatment of its indigenous population, which I have been studying. Indeed, it seems forgotten in post-colonial societies that Norwegian history is blighted with atrocities against the native Sámi.

    Until the second half of the 20th century, the Norwegian government forcibly seized Sámi lands in middle and northern Norway and sought to eradicate Sámi culture. A policy of Norweginisation, known as "fornorsking," meant that Sámi children were sent to Norwegian boarding schools, where they were beaten for speaking their native language.

    The Sámi were also denied the right to purchase property if they could not speak Norwegian. Today, Sámi people are still suppressed by Norwegian policy and experience ten times more discrimination than ethnic Norwegians.

    Many Sámi live throughout the country, and though their right to an education in Sámi and to the use of their language for public purposes has now been recognized, these rights are enjoyed only in small municipalities in the rural north that have been designated as Sámi territories.

    Generally speaking, to participate in Norway's society and economy, you must forgo being and speaking Sámi.

    While popular and even academic writing in Norway describes immigrants from the Middle East as speaking "kebab Norwegian," my 2016 analysis of online comments to Sámi-themed news found a similarly pervasive prejudice.

    The analysis shows that Norwegians argue that the Sámi threaten the purity of Norwegian ethnicity and way of life. Some say Sámi cannot be seen as Norwegian citizens, do not deserve indigenous status and have invented their historic oppression.

    In another display of discrimination, when Tromsø, the major town of the far north, considered designating itself a Sámi zone, opposing voices were filled with hate. Opponents even fired bullets at bilingual signs to express displeasure.

    Assimilation nation

    This racist undercurrent in Norway may derive from an American-style exceptionalism in Norway, whereby Norwegians are told and truly believe that they are world leaders in social policy.

    But to survive in Norway, those of a non-Norwegian culture are expected to adopt a Norwegian world view. The compulsory language courses given to migrants really brings that message home. Its curriculum celebrates Norway but presents almost hegemonic views on nearly everything else, from alcohol consumption to social values and Norwegian history.

    The Sámi and Romani are almost entirely absent from the language-course curriculum.

    To suggest that all is bad in Norway would be false. I, too, have been thankful for Norway's affordable health care and generous leave entitlements. And the upcoming parliamentary election, to be held in September 2017, presents an opportunity for a broader change, including on immigration.

    But not all is rosy in the Norwegian utopia. Next time someone extols the virtues of this "perfect" Scandinavian society, remind them that the Norwegian dream is not available to all.

    This article was written by Nathan John Albury, research fellow at the University of Oslo, for The Conversation on July 24. It is republished with permission.


    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-cou...acked-up-to-be
    Sounds like Norway is having some right-wing problems themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    Sounds like Norway is having some right-wing problems themselves.
    The Right wing is always repressive!
    Melchizedek

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    Sounds like Norway is having some right-wing problems themselves.
    It's the same government that created these economic policies that are supposedly superior to ours. Yet you want to conveniently separate them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    It's the same government that created these economic policies that are supposedly superior to ours. Yet you want to conveniently separate them.
    No, they have separate parties just like here. They have the far-right nationalists just like here. They are opponents to much of the goings on we want to emulate. They are too much of a minority to change much though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    No, they have separate parties just like here. They have the far-right nationalists just like here. They are opponents to much of the goings on we want to emulate. They are too much of a minority to change much though.
    So the people in power over the decades who created the social welfare state in Norway had no say over immigration policy in the country? How does that work?

    And Norwegian liberals wanted a more liberal immigration systems over the decades but were blocked by those on the right from being allowed to do so? That's your argument?

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    Hello anonymoose,

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymoose View Post
    German word pronounced g (as in 'get')em-nah-zee-um. A higher level of German high school where only the most qualified are accepted. Almost impossible to gain acceptance into German university without first completing gymnasium and doing well. Impossible to become a zahnartzt without first completing gymnasium.
    I'd probably be a cashier in Germany based on my grades from the 8th grade. Nice system but apparently what you prefer.
    The system is similar in Ireland. I suspect it's similar in your other utopian European countries.
    I never said I preferred that system. Obviously if I am asking you what it is I am not familiar with it. How does it follow that I prefer something when I am not even familiar with it? It doesn't. I post my views here. If I didn't post it, I can't be held to it.

    I do believe that the age has come, just as it did to ensure that public education went all the way from K-12, for it now to go from K-16. I don't think everyone should qualify. That means people who don't get good grades should not advance. It is not logical to place people in advanced course material if they have not demonstrated proficiency with prerequisite material.

    There is a valid concern that tuition inflation would continue to explode if the government simply agrees to pay anything demanded, with no competition. That needs to be addressed. I am sure we can find a way to do that to ensure that doesn't happen. One thought that comes to mind would be to simply run federal schools. If States want to charge far more to provide education that is their business. I don't understand why it needs to cost so much. I bet the federal government could run schools where it had complete control over costs, and then there would not be this 'soak the government, it's like free money' concept. What's the big deal about running a school? It's just knowledge. You just need to get knowledgeable people to impart this knowledge into those who need to acquire it. Where's the expense? So you need a facility, some workers, some equipment. A little understandable overhead. That's all available. Where's the big expense? We don't need to be paying for high salary professors who don't teach to be on the payroll. Nor endowments. Most college courses are taught by very low-paid adjuncts anyway. So let's cut out the pricey part and just get the job done.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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