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Thread: Trump signs bill making animal cruelty a FEDERAL FELONY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul View Post
    Scalia: “I don’t care if the framers of the Constitution had some secret meaning in mind when they adopted its words. I take the words as they were promulgated to the people of the United States, and what is the fairly understood meaning of those words.”

    Madison: "No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction."

    They are saying the same thing.

    12-0 in my favor.
    Hence:

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    Nothing in there that restricts the term "general welfare" to any set of listed or enumerated powers.

    And then it goes on to say:

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

    You're now 0-12 and heading for a winless season.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Hence:

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    Nothing in there that restricts the term "general welfare" to any set of listed or enumerated powers.

    And then it goes on to say:

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

    You're now 0-12 and heading for a winless season.
    You simply repeated your initial position. My initial response addressed that, citing Madison: "Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. "

    13-0, me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul View Post
    You simply repeated your initial position. My initial response addressed that, citing Madison: "Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. "

    13-0, me.
    Doing good!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Doing good!
    I've been citing Madison's writing on the non-existent General Welfare clause for years, and liberals have routinely ignored me, knowing my argument was bullet proof. I applaud Nomad's effort, however futile.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to MAGA MAN For This Post:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul View Post
    You simply repeated your initial position. My initial response addressed that, citing Madison: "Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. "

    13-0, me.
    To which I responded that Madison's view was only one opinion among many and it didn't prevail. Hamilton's view that the C should be interpreted as written, prevailed, and that the GW clause was intentionally left ambiguous in order to cover unforseen contingencies.

    Madison claimed that the best way to read the GW clause is to ignore its literal meaning and impose a limit on Congressional power based on what he felt it implied:

    With respect to the words “general welfare,” I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.
    Hamilton offered an interpretation of the GW Clause that closely resembles the modern understanding:

    These three qualifications excepted, the power to raise money is plenary, and indefinite; and the objects to which it may be appropriated are no less comprehensive, than the payment of the public debts and the providing for the common defence and "general Welfare." The terms "general Welfare" were doubtless intended to signify more than was expressed or imported in those which Preceded; otherwise numerous exigencies incident to the affairs of a Nation would have been left without a provision. The phrase is as comprehensive as any that could have been used; because it was not fit that the constitutional authority of the Union, to appropriate its revenues shou’d have been restricted within narrower limits than the "General Welfare" and because this necessarily embraces a vast variety of particulars, which are susceptible neither of specification nor of definition.
    Hamilton’s understanding was one part of a broader vision of congressional power that also included a similar interpretation of the Necessary and Proper Clause. This broader understanding of Congress’s role prevailed over Madison’s very limited one.

    Hence, the reason why right-wingers piss and moan so much about it.

    You're 0-13 and going down fast.

    Your making the playoffs is out of the question.
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  7. #156 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul View Post
    I've been citing Madison's writing on the non-existent General Welfare clause for years, and liberals have routinely ignored me, knowing my argument was bullet proof. I applaud Nomad's effort, however futile.
    You're sooooooo full of it.

    The courts have approached interpretation of the C and the very real and existent GW clause, in the same way as Alexander Hamilton.

    Madison's approach, the one you adhere to, has been mostly if not totally ignored.

    Bullet proof argument my ass. All you do is talk in circles like all right-wing trolls.

    You are 0-14. Season over.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    To which I responded that Madison's view was only one opinion among many and it didn't prevail. Hamilton's view that the C should be interpreted as written, prevailed, and that the GW clause was intentionally left ambiguous in order to cover unforseen contingencies.

    Madison claimed that the best way to read the GW clause is to ignore its literal meaning and impose a limit on Congressional power based on what he felt it implied:



    Hamilton offered an interpretation of the GW Clause that closely resembles the modern understanding:



    Hamilton’s understanding was one part of a broader vision of congressional power that also included a similar interpretation of the Necessary and Proper Clause. This broader understanding of Congress’s role prevailed over Madison’s very limited one.

    Hence, the reason why right-wingers piss and moan so much about it.

    You're 0-13 and going down fast.

    Your making the playoffs is out of the question.
    Argued in post 149.

    14-0, me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Season over.
    Yes it is, 15-0, me. Man-up and concede, or carry on with more ad homs and repeats of old arguments. I predict the latter, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul View Post
    Argued in post 149.

    14-0, me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul View Post
    Yes it is, 15-0, me. Man-up and concede, or carry on with more ad homs and repeats of old arguments. I predict the latter, lol.
    Apparently, your definition of the word "argued" = "just posted some crap but didn't really say anything".

    You really are picking up on that whole patented Trump method of blatant, shameless deflection, obfuscation and propaganda, aren't you?

    Even when you've been proven to be full of it, claim you were right. Even when you've made no valid argument, claim you won the argument. Even when you're every bit as, if not moreso, guilty of ad homs as anyone else, whine and moan about ad homs and play the victim card.

    You're now 0-15 and any last remaining grain of hope that you'll be able to come away from this as anything but a total, 100% loser, is all but faded away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Hence:

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    Nothing in there that restricts the term "general welfare" to any set of listed or enumerated powers.

    And then it goes on to say:

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

    You're now 0-12 and heading for a winless season.
    It is in the preamble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Apparently, your definition of the word "argued" = "just posted some crap but didn't really say anything".

    You really are picking up on that whole patented Trump method of blatant, shameless deflection, obfuscation and propaganda, aren't you?

    Even when you've been proven to be full of it, claim you were right. Even when you've made no valid argument, claim you won the argument. Even when you're every bit as, if not moreso, guilty of ad homs as anyone else, whine and moan about ad homs and play the victim card.

    You're now 0-15 and any last remaining grain of hope that you'll be able to come away from this as anything but a total, 100% loser, is all but faded away.
    Yup. The latter. As predicted.

  13. #162 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzomin View Post
    It is in the preamble.
    Article 1 Section 8.
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  14. #163 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    You haven't addressed squat.
    He has. Argument of the stone fallacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    But it's no surprise that you invent your own version of reality
    Define 'reality'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    just like your lying scumbag leader, Trump.
    Define 'reality'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    You claimed Madison's view of the C prevailed, but in reality, it was Hamilton's view that prevailed. But if, as you claimed, Madison's view prevailed and you agree with that view, why are you always bitching about the C not being adhered to?
    None prevailed. The Constitution is the ONLY authoritative reference of the Constitution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    The only 11 around here is your 11 year old's mentality.



    0 - 11.

    You're fading fast.
    Yet another lame insult fallacy. No argument presented. (YALIFNAP)

  16. #165 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Hence:

    The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    Nothing in there that restricts the term "general welfare" to any set of listed or enumerated powers.
    The 'welfare clause' is not a power. It is a directive. You cannot use the 'welfare clause' to cancel the rest of the Constitution!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    And then it goes on to say:

    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
    The federal government was given the power to collect taxes. That is a power. They also have been given the power to pass laws to execute that power.

    Myopic argument fallacy.

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