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Thread: U.S. not interested in Peace for Ukraine's Donbass

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    ridiculous. nationalism and a foreign policy of transactional relationships ( except treaties) is not "isolationism"
    You actually know what the answer to your question is:

    Originally Posted by dukkha

    why is the US not part of the peace process?
    Your president hates the State Department, he appoints nincompoops and NeoCons to run it (Tillerson, Pompeo), and he has no interest, and absolutely no skill at statecraft and diplomacy.

    Your president and his state department are to blame if you think we are f*cking up in Ukraine. It is all on Trump.

    Why don't you write the White House and email to complain about it, instead of asking rhetorical questions on an obscure message board for which the answer is already crystal clear??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bull Durham View Post
    And that's what was go great about him! Keep in mind, though, that Yeltsin successfully got Russia through the transition period, without a violent military insurrection (a real possibility), and then he initiated the bankruptcy, which allowed Russia to get back on track, rather than delay the inevitable, and progress along with it.

    Putin will never have to make decisions about anything as dire as those examples. Instead, he tries to engineer a crisis, every so often.
    Tying the ruble to market forces was an inevitable consequence of getting rid of the command economy.
    If you want to give Yeltsin credit for just being there OK. but he was no leader for Russia, and we were lucky to get Putin instead of some hardliner who would take Russia back on a collision course with the west.

    I remind you of NATO expansion which yu conveniently do not mention - after James Baker promised we would not expand eastward past Germany
    we expanded right up to Russia's border. Or in Ukraine's case meddled so damn bad in that country we basically installed Poroshenko and his Kyiv faction who to this day still play us for aid.

    The Euromaidan meddling also destroyed the Russian reset, and Putin's and the US possibility of improving relations.
    Instead we forced the annexation of Crimea by Putin who had to seize Crimea for access to Sevastopol.
    Which led to the war in Donbass as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    You actually know what the answer to your question is:
    ridiculous. we are ginning up the war in Donbass because we view it as a proxt war.
    That's why we are not part of the peace process. we prefer to "stick it" to Putin -the hell with peace instead.

    Your president hates the State Department, he appoints nincompoops and NeoCons to run it (Tillerson, Pompeo), and he has no interest, and absolutely no skill at statecraft and diplomacy.

    Your president and his state department are to blame if you think we are f*cking up in Ukraine. It is all on Trump.

    Why don't you write the White House and email to complain about it, instead of asking rhetorical questions on an obscure message board for which the answer is already crystal clear??
    you have no clues just how hostile the Deep State ( entrenched bureaucrats like yesterday who oppose Trump's policies) to Trump.
    they are dug in State -one reason Trump used Gulliani instead -he can't trust the State dept.
    They think they run foreign policy, they view it as their fiefdom. Trump be damned.

    And when it come to falling in line behind Trump ( the Constitutional order) they instead opt to protect their fiefdom/ all you had to do was see that in yesterdays testimony.
    ( Vindman too) -their allegiance is to Ukraine diplomatic process, not Trump's policies

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    The Russiaphobes, the Dems/State and the media are the unholy triumvirate who want us to war in Donbass.
    They are the very same creeps who want us in a perpetual presence in Syria as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    being into peace is good, but you have to promote actions that lead to peace as well, or you
    (not you personally) are just a hypocrite,

    Russiaphobia is treating Russia solely as an existential threat -say like terrorism- without trying to improve relations. in practice it's viewing Russia solely as a zero sum game.
    Anything we do has to punish Russia,and anything Russia does has to be seen as a threat to the west.

    Obviously international relations are much more complex - but dumbing it down always to a zero sum
    hurts our own security ( or causes a bloated DoD budget at minimum).

    It's also blaming Russia for anything ( scapegoating) - like the "Russian collusion" hoax.

    It would be much better for Europe to have good relations with Russia.
    Less defense spending ( which is pure waste) and less tensions would also bring Russia back
    from it's way too cozy ties with China.

    I mentioned the "China card" -that was the policy of trying to keep Russia and China from a military alliance
    to threaten the west.



    We did that for 40 years, and it all fell apart under Obama. The reason was U.S.meddling in Ukraine's Euromaidan.
    That destroyed the "Russian reset" and started the whole Crimea annexation and the current war in Donbass
    Obama had no easy challenge. A civilian airliner was shot down over Ukraine. Russia had their hand in that. I'm all for good relations but that doesn't mean just looking the other way when provocations occur. I don't think it is being fair to blame a deterioration of Russia relations solely on Obama.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Obama had no easy challenge. A civilian airliner was shot down over Ukraine. Russia had their hand in that. I'm all for good relations but that doesn't mean just looking the other way when provocations occur. I don't think it is being fair to blame a deterioration of Russia relations solely on Obama.
    Oh i'm not solely blaming Obama, and I do credit Obama for the foresight of the "Russian reset" -nor am I claiming the Russian weapons sent to the Separatists absolve Putin from blame.

    There is more then enough blame to go around. Ironically Obama was undermined by the State dept as well.
    I specifically point to Vicky Nuland ( Eurasian desk) and John Mccain's role on the ground in Kyiv's Independence Sq.
    McCain specifically. Nuland's "Fuck the EU" show her contempt for a peaceful existence between Ukraine and Russia

    McCain was repeatedly photographed with Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the right wing nationalist party Svoboda.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/john...kraine-2013-12


    U.S. Senator John McCain, center, speaks as Democratic senator from the state of Connecticut, Chris Murphy, second left, and Opposition leader Oleh Tyahnybok, right, stand around him during a Pro-European Union rally in Independence Square in Kiev, Ukraine, Sunday, Dec. 15, 2013.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    ridiculous. we are ginning up the war in Donbass because we view it as a proxt war.
    That's why we are not part of the peace process. we prefer to "stick it" to Putin -the hell with peace instead.

    you have no clues just how hostile the Deep State ( entrenched bureaucrats like yesterday who oppose Trump's policies) to Trump.
    they are dug in State -one reason Trump used Gulliani instead -he can't trust the State dept.
    They think they run foreign policy, they view it as their fiefdom. Trump be damned.

    And when it come to falling in line behind Trump ( the Constitutional order) they instead opt to protect their fiefdom/ all you had to do was see that in yesterdays testimony.
    ( Vindman too) -their allegiance is to Ukraine diplomatic process, not Trump's policies
    You lose a lot of credibility when you continuously blame "Deep State" for the myriad of failures of the incompetent Trump.

    It appears to me that Ukraine and Russia trust nations like Belarus, France, Germany to be participating facilitators in any reconciliation peace process.
    Why do you think you can demand that Ukraine/Russia accept Trump's help being a leading participant in the process? Everyone knows Trump is a joke, that he knows nothing about statecraft, and that he is a terrible negotiator.
    I mean, the whole world witnessed Trump's clownish, amateurish, failed efforts with North Korea.

    "Great news, folks! North Korea is no longer a nuclear threat!"

    - Donald Trump, July 2018

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    Oh i'm not solely blaming Obama, and I do credit Obama for the foresight of the "Russian reset" -nor am I claiming the Russian weapons sent to the Separatists absolve Putin from blame.

    There is more then enough blame to go around. Ironically Obama was undermined by the State dept as well.
    I specifically point to Vicky Nuland ( Eurasian desk) and John Mccain's role on the ground in Kyiv's Independence Sq.
    McCain specifically. Nuland's "Fuck the EU" show her contempt for a peaceful existence between Ukraine and Russia

    McCain was repeatedly photographed with Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of the right wing nationalist party Svoboda.
    https://www.businessinsider.com/john...kraine-2013-12


    U.S. Senator John McCain, center, speaks as Democratic senator from the state of Connecticut, Chris Murphy, second left, and Opposition leader Oleh Tyahnybok, right, stand around him during a Pro-European Union rally in Independence Square in Kiev, Ukraine, Sunday, Dec. 15, 2013.

    Clearly there are no easy answers. It's a very difficult situation. The way forward is not at all well indicated. It looks to me like we have been very patient and our State Department and other US officials have worked quite diligently toward the goal of peaceful coexistence and a free Ukraine, and quite the challenge, none the less.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Clearly there are no easy answers. It's a very difficult situation. The way forward is not at all well indicated. It looks to me like we have been very patient and our State Department and other US officials have worked quite diligently toward the goal of peaceful coexistence and a free Ukraine, and quite the challenge, none the less.
    the way forward is to stop ginning up the war with Russia. get behind the peace effort -Trump should at least announce something like this.
    Unfortunately war has a tendency to expand on itself - we keep sending more and more weapons.

    PS I appreciate your conversation here

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    Tying the ruble to market forces was an inevitable consequence of getting rid of the command economy.
    If you want to give Yeltsin credit for just being there OK. but he was no leader for Russia, and we were lucky to get Putin instead of some hardliner who would take Russia back on a collision course with the west.

    I remind you of NATO expansion which yu conveniently do not mention - after James Baker promised we would not expand eastward past Germany
    we expanded right up to Russia's border. Or in Ukraine's case meddled so damn bad in that country we basically installed Poroshenko and his Kyiv faction who to this day still play us for aid.

    The Euromaidan meddling also destroyed the Russian reset, and Putin's and the US possibility of improving relations.
    Instead we forced the annexation of Crimea by Putin who had to seize Crimea for access to Sevastopol.
    Which led to the war in Donbass as well
    I'm not sure how to tell you this, but...

     
    Putin is a hardliner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bull Durham View Post
    I'm not sure how to tell you this, but...

     
    Putin is a hardliner.
    I should have used "Communist"

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    I should have used "Communist"
    That ship has flown. You mistake being a hardliner for not being a realist. Putin knows how much he can get away with in his dealings with the West, the East, and the former satellite states. In fact, communists are typically incapable of being realists, since they live in a world of fiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bull Durham View Post
    That ship has flown. You mistake being a hardliner for not being a realist. Putin knows how much he can get away with in his dealings with the West, the East, and the former satellite states. In fact, communists are typically incapable of being realists, since they live in a world of fiction.
    you think so?
    did he think a few fucking FBook trolls were going to cost him dearly in sanctions? I think he badly miscalculated.

    Crimea was a forced move (as in chess term) because of the constant threat of not renewing the lease of Sevastopol.

    But ya he practices realpolitik. I wish we did the same

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    you think so?
    did he think a few fucking FBook trolls were going to cost him dearly in sanctions? I think he badly miscalculated.

    Crimea was a forced move (as in chess term) because of the constant threat of not renewing the lease of Sevastopol.

    But ya he practices realpolitik. I wish we did the same
    The FB trolls would have been ignored, because, plastic reset buttons and flexibility. Obama just wanted to put on a show of juvenile progressive angst, and to sabotage foreign policy for Trump on his way out the door.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bull Durham View Post
    The FB trolls would have been ignored, because, plastic reset buttons and flexibility. Obama just wanted to put on a show of juvenile progressive angst, and to sabotage foreign policy for Trump on his way out the door.
    trying to follow this:

    The reset was more in name - but it was an attempt to "reset "relations.
    The problem is we threw that away by U.S. meddling in the 2014 Euromaidan.
    Putin knows exactly what we did there, as well as not backing our blood thirsty Libya war

    Obama is damn near a Deep State weasel. the puppeteer

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