Democratic Debate

[Bigdog]

So if you don't go to college, where your critical thinking, analytical, and other intangible skills are honed and trained, you enter the workforce behind all those other people who have those skills.

So basically, you're arresting your own development by not going to college.

Untrue.

The first problem is fixing the already Free State education, ... so students can read and add at a college entrance level.

And not everyone is happy working in an office.

[Althea]

Tuition always costs more than housing...and a fully-funded public college and university could probably also offer no- or low-cost housing options. It's just a matter of how much funding you put into it. As for the inflated tuition payment, what are you talking about?

Often, tuition is less costly than housing. You don't believe that tuition costs are skyrocketing?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...t-housing-will

Even with student aid, a $5,000-a-year scholarship, and some income from a part-time job on campus, Martinez has had to take on far more debt than she expected. She’s hardly alone: Average student debt has climbed from about $11,000 in 1990 to around $35,000 in 2018. The cost of tuition at public colleges roughly tripled in that time, to $10,270, but that’s far from the only expense forcing students to take on loans. In a 2015 analysis, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development found that “housing costs [are] likely a significant portion” of individual student debt. At UT Austin, the median annual rent in the neighborhoods closest to campus exceeds the annual in-state tuition—about $11,000 for the upcoming academic year—even without including other costs such as utilities and groceries.

If there is no tuition, because the schools are free, then what are you talking about?

Call it whatever you want. Somebody is paying the institution, professors, janitors, etc. How will the fees be computed in a 'free college for all' program?

We already have trade schools, so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about here

.What I'm talking about, is funding. Are there free trade schools now?

You absolutely cannot get a decent paying job today without a college degree. You just can't. And Trade School jobs don't pay that much either, and the top of the range of wages for those jobs is still below the national median income. The median income nationally is $61,000. The median income for plumbers is $53,000.

Median being the operative word. Plumbers make six figures if they own the company. If you have a trade, you can be self employed. Job placement for someone with a Liberal Arts degree? The stats are not encouraging.

So you want to push people into careers where there isn't room for growth or advancement, where there's no way to reach higher income brackets.

As opposed to 'pushing' people into 4-8 years of education that simply won't pay dividends? You're describing a flaw in our current system that forces people to obtain a college degree in order to find a high paying job.

Nobody is 'pushing' anyone. I'm merely stating that in our current economy with virtually no manufacturing here, college is not the answer for the majority in this nation. Free college for doctors would go a long way toward lowering healthcare costs. Of course, you have to ask why people become doctors? Some do it to be rich. Some don't.

https://hbr.org/2019/05/what-the-job...lege-graduates

There are some other red flags. Recent grads are more likely to be underemployed — in jobs that don’t require a college degree — today than between 1998 and 2003. Furthermore, median earnings for recent grads were no higher in 2018 than they were in 2000 and 1990 (after adjusting for inflation), and earnings inequality among recent grads has actually increased in that time. Together that means that the bottom quarter of recent grads make less today than they have in the past.

So basically, "don't be ambitious" is your career advice.

Is it your claim that only college students/grads are 'ambitious'? Is that fair?

Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? Mark Zuckerberg?

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/11/self...o-college.html

If you didn't have to pay $400 a month because of student loans, what would you instead spend that money on?

Good question. If you don't have a job, it doesn't matter.

[LV426]

Untrue.

What is untrue? That brain development continues into your mid-20's? That is completely true.

You should be learning those intangible skills in grade school, and then developing and honing them in college.

Otherwise, you arrest your brain's development at age 18.

he first problem is fixing the already Free State education, ... so students can read and add at a college entrance level.

They can already do that. We're past this part. We're at the part now where those who can get into college can't afford it. Hence, the need for free public college.

Free public colleges also forces private institutions to lower their tuition costs in order to compete for students. Don't you like competition?

And not everyone is happy doing a desk job.

True, however if you want to raise your lifetime cap on earnings, you need a college degree. Trade school grads have 30% lower wages than Bachelor's grads.

While I agree that not everyone is cut out for desk work, that's not necessarily what college trains you for.

[OG Yurt]

I'm the only non-teabilly here

sad

Yes you are

[OG Yurt]

dukkha
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PostmodernProphet
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Pussy

[Althea]

Just because you can't quantify the usefulness of a college degree doesn't mean your subjective judgment is the standard.

Fact is, no matter what degree you have when you graduate, the simple fact that you have a degree immediately makes it more likely you will find a job. The stats are clear...the more educated you are, the better your job prospects and the higher your lifetime earnings.

Those with a Bachelor's Degree (any type of Bachelor's degree, just so long as it's a Bachelor's) see a 2.7% unemployment rate and their weekly median earnings are $1,100.

Compare that to...Associates Degree (what Trade Schools offer)...3.6% unemployment but a massive drop in weekly earnings below the median. The drop in weekly earnings between Bachelor's and Associates is 29%.

So people with Associates Degrees see higher unemployment, and lower weekly earnings than those with Bachelor's degrees.

Now these are stats from 2017, but I think they're probably still true today.

I understand. I think the question is, 'are they working in their desired field, or are they just taking a job that doesn't otherwise require a degree?

My GF is a nurse for more than 20 years. Suddenly, colleges are demanding a bachelors degree instead of her associates. With 20 years experience, I challenge anyone to show me how forcing her to study the civil war is advancing her nursing.

The state is trying to funnel money to the colleges, so they won't give accreditation to hospitals with less than 85% bachelors degrees for nurses.

That's complete and utter nonsense. Real life experience always trumps schooling for the majority of jobs. Lawyers/Doctors are the obvious exception.

I would even argue that engineers should be required to work in the field before entering college. I see a lot of gross incompetence in engineering/architecture in the last 10-20 years.

[LV426]

Often, tuition is less costly than housing. You don't believe that tuition costs are skyrocketing?

They've been skyrocketing since 2000. Also, those costs change depending on private or public colleges. I went to Syracuse for undergrad, and housing/board was about 1/3 of the tuition cost.

Call it whatever you want. Somebody is paying the institution, professors, janitors, etc. How will the fees be computed in a 'free college for all' program?

I still am not following you here. The institution gets funding through the State, just like they do now, only instead of students chipping in a share, they don't.

Somebody is paying the police station, police officers, etc. How are those fees computed?

Somebody is paying the fire station, fire department, equipment, etc. How are those fees computed?

Somebody is paying the public grade school, teachers, janitors, etc. How are those fees computed?

What I'm talking about, is funding. Are there free trade schools now?

No, just like with colleges, they're not free.

Median being the operative word. Plumbers make six figures if they own the company.

Ah...how many of them actually do that? Not many.

And to successfully run a company, you probably need a quick MBA or business management degree so you know what the fuck you're doing, and so your company doesn't go under in its first year, like most small companies do.

If you have a trade, you can be self employed. Job placement for someone with a Liberal Arts degree? The stats are not encouraging.

According to BLS in 2017, the unemployment rate for those with a Bachelor's is just 2.7%. For associates? 3.6%.

Bachelor grads also make 30% more than Associate's grads.

[Althea]

But the problem of private insurance companies colluding to set artificially high costs remains. Plus, what happens if everyone chooses the Public Option? What would have been the point of introducing it alongside private plans? What does the Public Option do any differently than Aetna?

The Public Option gives private insurance companies competition. Their CEOs are skimming billions off the top. The ACA went pretty far in curbing that, but who knows what's left of the law?

Those who obtain great coverage from employers would never go into the Public Option. People like myself, who have been trapped in the individual market for 40 years, would jump at the chance to obtain quality insurance at a reasonable price.

[LV426]

As opposed to 'pushing' people into 4-8 years of education that simply won't pay dividends? You're describing a flaw in our current system that forces people to obtain a college degree in order to find a high paying job.

Because that's the reality.

The more educated you are, the likelier you are to be employed, and the higher your wage goes. The stats are clear.

Here's BLS again...this is from 2017.

dod_education.jpg

[Althea]

They've been skyrocketing since 2000. Also, those costs change depending on private or public colleges. I went to Syracuse for undergrad, and housing/board was about 1/3 of the tuition cost.




I still am not following you here. The institution gets funding through the State, just like they do now, only instead of students chipping in a share, they don't.

Somebody is paying the police station, police officers, etc. How are those fees computed?

Somebody is paying the fire station, fire department, equipment, etc. How are those fees computed?

Somebody is paying the public grade school, teachers, janitors, etc. How are those fees computed?




No, just like with colleges, they're not free.




Ah...how many of them actually do that? Not many.

And to successfully run a company, you probably need a quick MBA or business management degree so you know what the fuck you're doing, and so your company doesn't go under in its first year, like most small companies do.




According to BLS in 2017, the unemployment rate for those with a Bachelor's is just 2.7%. For associates? 3.6%.

Bachelor grads also make 30% more than Associate's grads.

Stepping out for the evening. Going to see a great local blues musician. I'll address this later, as it's a good discussion.

[LV426]

Nobody is 'pushing' anyone. I'm merely stating that in our current economy with virtually no manufacturing here, college is not the answer for the majority in this nation. Free college for doctors would go a long way toward lowering healthcare costs. Of course, you have to ask why people become doctors? Some do it to be rich. Some don't.

Well, I think you're completely wrong, and I think the jobs you think have virtue are the ones most likely to disappear as technology continues to develop. I used to have to pay someone to physically clean my gutters. Now, I have a machine that does it in a fraction of the time, and at a fraction of the cost.

There are some other red flags. Recent grads are more likely to be underemployed

I don't know anyone who graduates with a Bachelor's degree and expects to be hired at a Vice President or CEO level. It depends on the industry, sure, and internships are playing a terrible role in that, but that's not the fault of higher education...it's the fault of greedy ass companies who won't pay recent grads a good wage, and Boomers who are refusing to leave the workforce because they need the health care and/or need to save for retirement.

Together that means that the bottom quarter of recent grads make less today than they have in the past.

Which has nothing to do with college and everything to do with greed.

Is it your claim that only college students/grads are 'ambitious'? Is that fair?

If we are talking purely in the realm of lifetime earnings, then yes...that is completely fair. We know that the higher your education level, the higher your lifetime earnings. The two are intrinsically linked, but we shouldn't be denying someone the opportunity to achieve that simply because they're not wealthy enough to afford college. Does that sound fair to you?

[LV426]

Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? Mark Zuckerberg?

All of whom are actively preventing wage growth at the companies they run (or ran).

All of whom are setting the low compensation for recent grads.

All of whom are not raising pay commensurate with experience, education, and training.

None of which is the fault of higher education, but rather corporate greed.

[LV426]

Good question. If you don't have a job, it doesn't matter.

According to BLS in 2017, Bachelor's grads have an unemployment rate of just 2.7%.
According to BLS in 2017, Associates grads have an unemployment rate of 3.6%.

According to BLS, Bachelor's grads have weekly median earnings of $1,100.
According to BLS, Associates grads have weekly median earnings of $890.

So just comparing those numbers, we see a clear advantage for people with a Bachelor's vs. Associates. Those people see higher lifetime earnings, which also correlates to health care in our current system. The more educated you are, the more you earn, the healthier you are,and the longer your life expectancy.

[LV426]

I understand. I think the question is, 'are they working in their desired field, or are they just taking a job that doesn't otherwise require a degree?

The current Chairman of WarnerMedia, Bob Greenblatt, was a theater major in college.

Now, he runs the largest media company in the world.

y GF is a nurse for more than 20 years. Suddenly, colleges are demanding a bachelors degree instead of her associates. With 20 years experience, I challenge anyone to show me how forcing her to study the civil war is advancing her nursing.

Well, weren't many modern nursing techniques developed in the Civil War? At least, around that time starting with Florence Nightengale in Crimea, but then carrying into Clara Barton and Louisa May Alcott. It wasn't until the mid-1800's that people discovered germs, and that you should probably clean and dress wounds so they don't get infected. In fact, the guide to modern nursing was developed during...wait for it...wait for it...wait for it...the Civil War.

Nursing in the Civil War
http://www.pbs.org/mercy-street/unco...ing-civil-war/

Your GF should know this shit...it formed the basis of her profession. Civil War history is intrinsically important to nursing. That's where most of the nursing techniques we see today originated!

[LV426]

The state is trying to funnel money to the colleges, so they won't give accreditation to hospitals with less than 85% bachelors degrees for nurses.

Well, I would want well-trained nurses that were educated to a higher standards, don't you???

That's complete and utter nonsense. Real life experience always trumps schooling for the majority of jobs. Lawyers/Doctors are the obvious exception.

No. No no no. This is why so many businesses fail. People think they can conventional wisdom their way through running a business. They think they're entitled to run a business. But let me be clear; no one is entitled to run a business, let alone run one poorly.

I would even argue that engineers should be required to work in the field before entering college. I see a lot of gross incompetence in engineering/architecture in the last 10-20 years.

Well, I can't account for anecdotes, but from where I sit, the problem isn't that there aren't good engineers, the problem is that our infrastructure is outdated and in bad need of an overhaul; and putting a steel plate down over a hole, or patching it up with duct tape isn't gonna cut it.