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Thread: Democratic Debate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    You have no idea about anything related to your health insurance. Probably best if you stay out of the discussion and save yourself the embarrassment.
    I am one of the ACCOUNTANTS for my employer, dumbass... I know full well how much my employer pays for the health insurance plan they offer us, and I know full well how much my share of that cost is. My employer is very generous and pays a large share of that cost.

    I also do my own tax returns, dumbass... I don't get any "tax credit".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    LMAO...so clueless. I know exactly what your W 2 looks like w/respect to health insurance.
    Alrighty then...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    I am one of the ACCOUNTANTS for my employer, dumbass... I know full well how much my employer pays for the health insurance plan they offer us, and I know full well how much my share of that cost is. My employer is very generous and pays a large share of that cost.

    I also do my own tax returns, dumbass... I don't get any "tax credit".
    what the fuck makes you think ANYONE would believe a word you say here idiot


    YOU LIE NON STOP


    YOU HAVE NO GOOD REPUTATION FOR US TO TRUST IN

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Althea,

    Any employer paying the health costs of a worker
    Such as my employer... They pay a very generous share of the health care plan costs...

    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    could increase the pay of that worker by the same amount
    So, you're attempting to shift my employer's healthcare plan expense over to the employee's paychecks. Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    if the USA had free health care.
    There is no such thing as "free healthcare".

    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Sure, taxes might have to be raised to pay for the health care,
    Paradox. Irrational argumentation.

    [1] Healthcare is FREE.
    [2] Taxes will be raised to pay for healthcare.

    Which is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    but the tax hike would not be as much as the pay hike. The worker would see a net gain.
    Even a small tax hike would result in a net loss for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    We have to stop the huge sucking sound of wealth being extracted from American paychecks for health care. Americans pay more than double what it costs other countries. There is no need for that. Big pharma executives and big insurance executives are getting filthy rich and they are not earning it.
    Price controls never work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    No question that this is a complex issue. A big part of the problem, as we see in these threads, is that most people don't even understand their own insurance funding.
    I understand mine just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Most think that insurance is free,
    Speaking for myself, I do not think that insurance is free. $XX.xx/paycheck gets siphoned off of my gross income. Then, the [gross income - health insurance premium] amount is subject to federal/state withholdings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    or very low cost because they literally pay next to nothing for it.
    I pay a rather low amount for my premium. However, seeing as I am one of the Accountants for my employer (even though I don't handle payables), I am aware of how much healthcare costs, and am aware that my employer pays a rather large share of that cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Others saw price hikes after ACA was passed, but didn't understand that their bosses were taking advantage of the propaganda in the news, and claiming that ACA raised their costs.
    My employer didn't "take advantage of propaganda". Again, I'm one of the accountants for my employer so I've seen firsthand how much my employer pays for their insurance. Their costs increased quite a bit due to ACA, and the coverage itself decreased in quality a bit due to ACA. In short, paying more for less. My employer still ate a large chunk of that increase though (they only passed along a very small portion of it to their employees), so my premium didn't increase too much, thankfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Meanwhile, they just passed along a larger share of the premium cost to the employee, and blamed Obama.
    Maybe some did, but my employer didn't. See above. And it WAS Obama's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Many pay almost nothing for their insurance. That's due to their negotiated union contracts in many cases. So, they'd actually be paying more via taxation, and they won't be very supportive of such a plan.

    This country typically operates on a 'I got mine' mentality. Others 'made bad choices', if you believe their claims.
    Plenty of times, others DID make bad choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Althea,

    So a new law which establishes medicare for all must also force employers who have been providing health insurance to then increase the pay of workers by the same amount the insurance was costing the company.

    Problem solved.

    We can do this.

    It's not rocket science.
    It may not be rocket science, but it IS price controls. Price controls never work. They ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS lead to shortages... Every single time... Yet, people keep acting as if price controls are a good thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Employers will have no excuse not to comply. One day, they are paying the money out to insurance companies. The next day they are paying the same money out to the workers. No loss for the company, just take one payable and shift it to another. Profits are not affected. No additional cost is incurred by the employer. Workers get fatter paychecks.
    Wrong. Both employer and employee will now be taxed more as individuals to pay for "free" healthcare.

    Employers lose out since their individual taxes increase, and employees lose out since their "fatter paychecks" just get transferred, and then some, to the federal government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    I am one of the ACCOUNTANTS for my employer, dumbass... I know full well how much my employer pays for the health insurance plan they offer us, and I know full well how much my share of that cost is. My employer is very generous and pays a large share of that cost.

    I also do my own tax returns, dumbass... I don't get any "tax credit".
    So many insults. The smart thing is to take health insurance off the backs of companies. That would make our corporations more competitive. Universal health care would be so much cheaper and more comprehensive.
    The cost of health insurance on companies includes the cost of managing it. It is a bad system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    free health care
    free pre-school
    free child care
    free college
    wealth tax
    wealth inequality tax
    student debt forgiveness

    a few I forget
    I could go for free college and student debt forgiveness.


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    Quote Originally Posted by OG Yurt View Post
    I could go for free college and student debt forgiveness.

    There is no such thing as free. It is paid for by taxes. We must all know that our system is wrong. Saddling a person with an educational mortgage damages people's financial lives and takes away consumer demand from a buying demographic.
    Fixing that system would mean those who have the ridiculous and crippling debt would still have it. It is tough to justify erasing their debt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzomin View Post
    So many insults.
    Many of them come from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzomin View Post
    The smart thing is to take health insurance off the backs of companies. That would make our corporations more competitive. Universal health care would be so much cheaper and more comprehensive.
    The cost of health insurance on companies includes the cost of managing it. It is a bad system.
    You already saw how much Obamacare raised healthcare costs. You want to go even FURTHER than that?? Not very smart...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    I am one of the ACCOUNTANTS for my employer, dumbass... I know full well how much my employer pays for the health insurance plan they offer us, and I know full well how much my share of that cost is. My employer is very generous and pays a large share of that cost.

    I also do my own tax returns, dumbass... I don't get any "tax credit".
    You pay your portion of the premium with pre tax dollars.

    Some accountant you are. It's better than a tax credit. It never shows up as income in the first place.

    And...your employer avoids FICA payments on the portion he pays.

    But do tell us how you're special, and Medicare for all would be different from you getting the taxpayer to pay for your current coverage.
    Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evince View Post
    what the fuck makes you think ANYONE would believe a word you say here idiot


    YOU LIE NON STOP


    YOU HAVE NO GOOD REPUTATION FOR US TO TRUST IN
    Now pretending to be an accountant.
    Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    You pay your portion of the premium with pre tax dollars.

    Some accountant you are. It's better than a tax credit. It never shows up as income in the first place.

    And...your employer avoids FICA payments on the portion he pays.

    But do tell us how you're special, and Medicare for all would be different from you getting the taxpayer to pay for your current coverage.
    Depends, and none of that is the taxpayer paying for my coverage.

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    Hello gfm7175,

    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    Such as my employer... They pay a very generous share of the health care plan costs...
    Too bad they don't just pay that money to you instead. If my idea were enacted they would increase your take-home.


    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    So, you're attempting to shift my employer's healthcare plan expense over to the employee's paychecks. Okay.
    Zackly.

    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    There is no such thing as "free healthcare".
    Once it is paid for up front there is no copay at the time of service. From the endpoint of the user, it is free.

    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    Paradox. Irrational argumentation.

    [1] Healthcare is FREE.
    [2] Taxes will be raised to pay for healthcare.

    Which is it?
    I've made my position clear. I am not interested in playing semantics.

    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    Even a small tax hike would result in a net loss for me.
    Not if your paycheck is increased by more than the tax hike. In that case it would be a net gain for you. But it is troubling that all your thinking about is yourself. I am trying to solve the problems of the nation and you are only concerned about you. Do you have any patriotism at all? Any calling to consider what is best for America?

    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    Price controls never work.
    What kind of system do you think you current insurance operates under? I hope you don't think it is a free and competitive market. How does a free market even exist for health care? It's not like if you're unconscious and in need of immediate medical attention that you are in any position to compare prices. And even if you were, how would you do that? Which hospitals publish their prices for procedures? Broken arm - X dollars, appendix out - Y dollars, heart attack treatment - Z dollars. Maybe they have an electronic sign out front: Special today only: gunshot wound to the thigh, only $33,000 non complicated, with bone impact $99,000. Have your ambulance come here, or make note and keep it in your pocket in case of being found unconscious.

    The 'insurance that you are happy with and you want to keep?' It's price-controlled!
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Hello gfm,

    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    It may not be rocket science, but it IS price controls. Price controls never work. They ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS lead to shortages... Every single time... Yet, people keep acting as if price controls are a good thing...


    Wrong. Both employer and employee will now be taxed more as individuals to pay for "free" healthcare.

    Employers lose out since their individual taxes increase, and employees lose out since their "fatter paychecks" just get transferred, and then some, to the federal government.
    You do know that the federal government is our friend, right? Without it, the USA would not exist. I hope you do love this country. I cannot imagine how you might expect it to exist if government-hater succeed in debilitating the federal government to the point of ineffectiveness. We need a large and strong central government if we wish to have a large and strong country.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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