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Thread: Democratic Debate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Getin the ring View Post
    Hey I'm on board with all of the above,
    but withhold judgement based on two things
    the total cost, is it sustainable
    and how will providers react to receiving less monies for services, considerably less I would presume
    A couple things about this:

    Right now, your doctor colludes with your insurance company to set artificially high costs for everything so that both can mutually benefit from a business perspective. The current system is modeled on volume instead of outcomes. When you don't have the payor and the provider colluding to make a profit for both, you commence an actual negotiation. The payor isn't concerned with making a profit in M4A, it is only concerned with lowering costs. That results in the payor, who has the bargaining power, negotiating with your doctor instead of colluding with them. That forces the provider to improve its outcomes in order to get patients.

    If all providers are reimbursed at the same rate -so no more private insurance collusion- that levels the playing field and forces doctors to compete for your care. How do they compete for your care if they're all reimbursed at the same rate? By improving health outcomes. You can't competitively shop for health care right now...you might think your doctor is good, but you have no frame of reference for that. You should competitively shop for health care the same way you competitively shop for any other product or service. Right now, you are only competitively shopping for who reimburses your provider, not for who provides you with the best care. That's because of the private insurance business model, which is to take in as much in premiums as they can, and pay out as little in reimbursement as they can get away with. Nothing in that equation has anything to do with improving your health.

    Now, for the sustainability...we already are spending $33T over the next 10 years in the current system. M4A saves us at least $1T, and probably much more as costs come down because there's no longer collusion between the insurer and provider to set artificially high costs so both can profit at your expense. So we are already spending a shitload of money on health care and we will if nothing changes. In the end, M4A is just as sustainable as the current system, so long as there's a tax that funds it in lieu of OOPE.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    A couple things about this:

    Right now, your doctor colludes with your insurance company to set artificially high costs for everything so that both can mutually benefit from a business perspective. The current system is modeled on volume instead of outcomes. When you don't have the payor and the provider colluding to make a profit for both, you commence an actual negotiation. The payor isn't concerned with making a profit in M4A, it is only concerned with lowering costs. That results in the payor, who has the bargaining power, negotiating with your doctor instead of colluding with them. That forces the provider to improve its outcomes in order to get patients.

    If all providers are reimbursed at the same rate -so no more private insurance collusion- that levels the playing field and forces doctors to compete for your care. How do they compete for your care if they're all reimbursed at the same rate? By improving health outcomes. You can't competitively shop for health care right now...you might think your doctor is good, but you have no frame of reference for that. You should competitively shop for health care the same way you competitively shop for any other product or service. Right now, you are only competitively shopping for who reimburses your provider, not for who provides you with the best care. That's because of the private insurance business model, which is to take in as much in premiums as they can, and pay out as little in reimbursement as they can get away with. Nothing in that equation has anything to do with improving your health.

    Now, for the sustainability...we already are spending $33T over the next 10 years in the current system. M4A saves us at least $1T, and probably much more as costs come down because there's no longer collusion between the insurer and provider to set artificially high costs so both can profit at your expense. So we are already spending a shitload of money on health care and we will if nothing changes. In the end, M4A is just as sustainable as the current system, so long as there's a tax that funds it in lieu of OOPE.
    Are you saying that the doctor finishing first in his class and the doctor finishing last in his class are of the same quality?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Getin the ring View Post
    In theory it is a no-brainer, take it out of my paycheck and there is no cost to me outside of that, it would soon just get washed in with wages expectations
    and who doesn't want a better chance at retiring early
    Exactly! Or...who doesn't want to quit their shitty job and start their own business? M4A lets you do that because, as mentioned many times, one of the primary reasons people stay in jobs that they don't like, that underpay them, that exploit them, is because of health care.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Hello Micawber,

    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    True that. But a mortgage didn't cost what a mortgage does now either. My parents bought for $27,000 and sold for $800,000.

    My house cost me about $800k. Don't I have a claim for a free house by the same token?

    They signed the note. The note might have been too large, but it was a negotiable instrument with a simple payment due.

    I had a client with a side issue. Seems granny wanted to pay for poor little rich girl's Pepperdine education. They asked me to negotiate
    a debt of about 300K. I had a warchest. IOW I could pay it all off lump sum. That's what we had to do because there is no SOL
    on a government loan, and this person was not even in default. She certainly wasn't much of a hardship case. They cut a check for
    balance in full. No wiggle room. Should she have gotten a free Pepperdine education? I advised against a strategic default to qualify for an
    interest waiver, because they had the money to simply pay and not ruin perfect credit.

    At some point life is not fair. That point might just include people who knowingly overpay for a college education. Forgive the interest, pay the nut.
    Part of the problem is the inflation of college costs. When I advocate for free college I mean State schools with reasonable limits on the costs. The rates need to be set by the DOE, similar to medicare rates being set by the govt.

    No way the tax payers should be on the hook for glitzy name recognition school fees.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    S.S. is unsustainable in its current form
    Well, the fix is quite simple; lift the cap on taxable income.


    yet you want to increase benefits and lower the retirement age?
    Why not do that? The primary reasons anyone stays in a job past age 55 are retirement and health care.

    Half of all American workers don't even have retirement savings, and for those over age 55 who do, they only have an average of $250K, and that is skewed by the 1% which has millions in retirement savings. If you take the 1% out, I bet the average amount a 55-year old worker has in their 401K would be below $100K.

    Older workers are also a drain on companies because of their higher health care costs, even in group plans. Boomers need to get out of the workforce because there are more Millennials than them.

    It's not about "free" stuff, it's about responsible governance and being sensitive to the demographic shifts in the labor market.

    The wealthy can certainly chip in 2-3% of their wealth to ensure everyone has the option of free public higher education. Plus, if you make public colleges free, that forces private institutions to lower their tuition to compete.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    This
    No doubt, I wanted to be a major league closer with a handlebar mustache throwing nine pitches every fourth day at 110 mph, but alas ended up a lawyer
    who looks more like the "stay thirsty my friends" guy.

    I made the right choice for me, or at least a decent one, eventually.
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    Hello gfm7175,

    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    No they don't.

    I, and my employer, pay for my health insurance.

    You aren't paying a single penny for it.
    That depends on who your employer's customers are.

    What is their flavor of wealth extraction?
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Micawber,



    Part of the problem is the inflation of college costs. When I advocate for free college I mean State schools with reasonable limits on the costs. The rates need to be set by the DOE, similar to medicare rates being set by the govt.

    No way the tax payers should be on the hook for glitzy name recognition school fees.
    I think they should do something for your free unadorned practical budget education, like two years army or peace corps or working in blighted areas for several years after school.

    Something. And it needs to be something unpleasant! LOL cuz that is the whole point. Don't teach people to expect free things in life. These are adults at 18, right? Let's not extend immaturity 4 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Self employed people now pay app. 16% FICA (self employment tax), and would add another 11.5% if M4A is passed. That's a bit of a flaw in the plan.
    Why would they pay the 4% tax on personal income and the 7.5% tax on business income? Wouldn't it be one or the other if they owned their own business?

    Also, with M4A, the Medicare portion (2.9%) of the Self Employment Tax goes away, leaving just the FICA SS Payroll tax of 12.4%.
    Last edited by LV426; 10-16-2019 at 03:31 PM.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Bullshit. trump killed the soy bean market, and is now providing his own brand of Socialism to get votes.
    Let's skip all your propaganda bullshit and get to the core issue. We know you want Chinese global dominance because you think their gov't is morally pure and superior to ours.
    I condemn the National Socialist German Workers Party, the Socialist Democrat Hate Whitey Party,... and Socialist Workers party heroes, Mao, Chavez, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Stalin, Castro and Kim Jung Un.

    Liberal Racist code: Orange is the New White

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    A motivated hard working go getter can still get a college ed at a public school without mortgaging her future.
    But if you pay 100K to go to culinary school I don't have much sympathy. Maybe Stanford isn't in your future,
    but you can have a damn nice future at some lesser in state option, whatever your state.
    Stay in state, pick a major with prospects, don't party too hard and hustle your ass. It will work out in the long run.
    Oh, and don't fucking have children until you are at least 34 and gainfully employed, and no more than 2.
    Lecture over.
    I think when people start inserting their subjective worth on certain degrees, you lose the entire point.

    Those degrees you might think of as "lesser" also form the foundation of advanced degree work. Sociology, for example, might seem like a worthless major. But then when you ace your sociology degree, that opens up the door for you to go for a Master's, or a teaching certificate, or a PHD. Also, massive corporations are desperate to hire sociology and psychology majors because of the insight they can give to customer acquisition. You have to understand the psychology of your customer base in order to market to them.

    In my view, getting a college degree isn't the only component of attending college. You also learn critical thinking skills, analysis skills, and other intangibles that can't be quantified by a degree. Exposure to other cultures, ideas, perspectives...all that happens in higher education and it doesn't happen in the workforce. The intangible skills you learn at college also play a major part in making you employable. The Chairman of WarnerMedia, Bob Greenblatt, was a theater major in college.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Hello Micawber,

    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    I think they should do something for your free unadorned practical budget education, like two years army or peace corps or working in blighted areas for several years after school.

    Something. And it needs to be something unpleasant! LOL cuz that is the whole point. Don't teach people to expect free things in life. These are adults at 18, right? Let's not extend immaturity 4 years.
    I would agree to that for higher degrees. Masters, PhD. Also, link that to economical State education as well. For instance, if we had a national health service to provide free health care to everybody we would need more doctors. Expand schools to crank them out. The government pays the tuition, and the graduates have to work for the government in return for their higher education. But they are well paid, so it's a good deal all around. A win/win. By cutting out the insurance companies, billions are saved. In the end we deliver true universal health care for far less than we are currently paying. No way big pharma should be making $70 billion for 'helping people.' Let the government decide what new drugs are needed and issue contracts for pharma companies to manufacture them. And if none think it's enough for them then let the government manufacture the drugs, too. Government already pays for the R&D.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CFM View Post
    Ever notice how so many on the left make statements that they could, in no way, have the knowledge to make?
    Yes, I definitely have!

    Quote Originally Posted by CFM View Post
    Althea also made the claim that 30% of those that voted for Trump did so due to racism. Did Althea survey everyone that voted for Trump?
    hahahahaha yeah, I highly doubt that Althea did that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micawber View Post
    No doubt, I wanted to be a major league closer with a handlebar mustache throwing nine pitches every fourth day at 110 mph, but alas ended up a lawyer
    who looks more like the "stay thirsty my friends" guy.

    I made the right choice for me, or at least a decent one, eventually.
    I have seen a picture of you fake lawyer. You look like Donald Southerland on crack.
    Consider the Oyster.

    C-4 is just angry playdoh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    No idea what you are smoking...

    The only people who pay for my health insurance are myself and my employer.
    You have no idea about anything related to your health insurance. Probably best if you stay out of the discussion and save yourself the embarrassment.
    Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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