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Thread: Endless Wars, Open-Ended Commitments

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    Default Endless Wars, Open-Ended Commitments

    Flying from Baghdad to Erbil is like flying from the Moon to Miami. The differences are stunning indeed. Compared to Baghdad, Erbil (the provincial capital of Iraqi Kurdistan) is an oasis.
    Deplaning, we were greeted warmly. We were told we would no longer need to wear flack jackets.
    Erbil was modern and safe. If the rest of Iraq and Afghanistan look like the Kurdish region in 20 years, the American blood and treasure might have been worth it. The jury is still out on that.

    Candidate Trump promised to extract our armed forces from regional skirmishes in that region.
    It is one more promise he rightly intends to keep.
    The various tribes have been fighting with each other for 1,000 years.
    Additional American sacrifice may not change much. ISIS has been virtually destroyed.
    President Trump asks, are we to keep troops in Syria forever?

    The Turks are more than willing to fill the void.
    They can hold Assad in check and insure that the Islamic State doesn’t make a military comeback.
    They can also take the lead with displaced Syrian refugees. They will deal with the ISIS POW’s.
    More importantly, they represent an important counterbalance to Iranian ambitions.

    Legitimate concerns have been expressed that we are leaving our friends, the Kurds to the tender mercies of President Erdogan’s Turkish army. Erdogan is far from a trustworthy partner and certainly no friend of the Kurds. The Kurds are not completely sinless in the lingering dispute.
    Fear of a wholesale slaughter of Kurdish fighters is not unjustified.
    Abandoning trusted allies would send a chilling message to other allies in potential hotspots around the world.
    Critics claim that keeping a campaign promise would come at a heavy price.

    Undoubtably, President Trump has weighed all of these concerns before making his decision.
    He has threatened Erdogan, saying that moves against the Kurds will have disastrous consequences.
    Turkey desperately needs the United States and Western Europe for trade and capital.
    The Turks are still extremely sensitive whenever the issue of the Armenian genocide comes up.
    They want acceptance from the West. The Turks would be ostracized by the West for generations for anything resembling a repeat genocide of the Kurds.


    Some have said that we do not want a confrontation that could lead to a war with Turkey. That is true.
    It is also safe to say that the Turks cannot afford a confrontation, not just with us, but the rest of NATO as well.
    We must assume that President Trump received assurances that there would be no Kurdish genocide.
    Although evidence today suggests otherwise, Erdogan must know that Trump doesn’t bluff.
    It would be foolhardy for him to double cross this President.

    Europeans are clucking loudly about the President’s decision.
    Perhaps it is time for them (and NATO) to step up and take our place in Syria.
    If the primary mission has morphed into serving as a tripwire, stopping potential Turkish aggression,
    wouldn’t NATO troops be just as effective?

    https://townhall.com/columnists/gilg...ments-n2554635

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    Darth Omar (10-13-2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    Flying from Baghdad to Erbil is like flying from the Moon to Miami. The differences are stunning indeed. Compared to Baghdad, Erbil (the provincial capital of Iraqi Kurdistan) is an oasis.
    Deplaning, we were greeted warmly. We were told we would no longer need to wear flack jackets.
    Erbil was modern and safe. If the rest of Iraq and Afghanistan look like the Kurdish region in 20 years, the American blood and treasure might have been worth it. The jury is still out on that.

    Candidate Trump promised to extract our armed forces from regional skirmishes in that region.
    It is one more promise he rightly intends to keep.
    The various tribes have been fighting with each other for 1,000 years.
    Additional American sacrifice may not change much. ISIS has been virtually destroyed.
    President Trump asks, are we to keep troops in Syria forever?

    The Turks are more than willing to fill the void.
    They can hold Assad in check and insure that the Islamic State doesn’t make a military comeback.
    They can also take the lead with displaced Syrian refugees. They will deal with the ISIS POW’s.
    More importantly, they represent an important counterbalance to Iranian ambitions.

    Legitimate concerns have been expressed that we are leaving our friends, the Kurds to the tender mercies of President Erdogan’s Turkish army. Erdogan is far from a trustworthy partner and certainly no friend of the Kurds. The Kurds are not completely sinless in the lingering dispute.
    Fear of a wholesale slaughter of Kurdish fighters is not unjustified.
    Abandoning trusted allies would send a chilling message to other allies in potential hotspots around the world.
    Critics claim that keeping a campaign promise would come at a heavy price.

    Undoubtably, President Trump has weighed all of these concerns before making his decision.
    He has threatened Erdogan, saying that moves against the Kurds will have disastrous consequences.
    Turkey desperately needs the United States and Western Europe for trade and capital.
    The Turks are still extremely sensitive whenever the issue of the Armenian genocide comes up.
    They want acceptance from the West. The Turks would be ostracized by the West for generations for anything resembling a repeat genocide of the Kurds.


    Some have said that we do not want a confrontation that could lead to a war with Turkey. That is true.
    It is also safe to say that the Turks cannot afford a confrontation, not just with us, but the rest of NATO as well.
    We must assume that President Trump received assurances that there would be no Kurdish genocide.
    Although evidence today suggests otherwise, Erdogan must know that Trump doesn’t bluff.
    It would be foolhardy for him to double cross this President.

    Europeans are clucking loudly about the President’s decision.
    Perhaps it is time for them (and NATO) to step up and take our place in Syria.
    If the primary mission has morphed into serving as a tripwire, stopping potential Turkish aggression,
    wouldn’t NATO troops be just as effective?

    https://townhall.com/columnists/gilg...ments-n2554635
    Boom.

    Why are WE always the ‘chosen ones’ [to borrow Trump’s theologically loaded phrase lol] to manage these things? It makes zero sense for our tax dollars going to NATO while NATO sits on its fricking thumbs while even more of our tax dollars goes to policing THEIR part of the world.

    Do you see NATO at our border helping to manage OUR immigration crisis? I literally made myself chuckle at the thought.

    Trump is a businessman so it’s easy to see why this sort of thing gets under his skin. All other politicians see our tax dollars as some sort inexhaustible fountain but Trump looks at it differently. One of the first things he did in foreign policy was to get NATO countries to pony-up.

    Now they can actually do something by taking over our ‘police duties’.
    “I would like you to do us a favor, I would like you to find out what happened with the whole situation with Ukraine, with CrowdStrike. The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation.”~verbatim, from Trump’s Perfect Call

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Boom.

    Why are WE always the ‘chosen ones’ [to borrow Trump’s theologically loaded phrase lol] to manage these things? It makes zero sense for our tax dollars going to NATO while NATO sits on its fricking thumbs while even more of our tax dollars goes to policing THEIR part of the world.

    Do you see NATO at our border helping to manage OUR immigration crisis? I literally made myself chuckle at the thought.

    Trump is a businessman so it’s easy to see why this sort of thing gets under his skin. All other politicians see our tax dollars as some sort inexhaustible fountain but Trump looks at it differently. One of the first things he did in foreign policy was to get NATO countries to pony-up.

    Now they can actually do something by taking over our ‘police duties’.

    European fuckupedness is a great part of why we wield world power. European fuckupedness is literally why America and many other countries exist. NATO, the World Bank and yes even the EU are our creations. We created the new world order to eliminate European fucking up. The brits imploded post WW2 when their empire told them to fuck off. The world order is indeed our creation and our benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by katzgar View Post
    European fuckupedness is a great part of why we wield world power. European fuckupedness is literally why America and many other countries exist. NATO, the World Bank and yes even the EU are our creations. We created the new world order to eliminate European fucking up. The brits imploded post WW2 when their empire told them to fuck off. The world order is indeed our creation and our benefit.
    I agree with some of that but I see little in the way of benefit, for us, in the current order.

    Which is the essence of America First. Probably a big reason Trump wouldn’t win a popularity contest amongst European leaders. They have a big stake in the status quo.
    “I would like you to do us a favor, I would like you to find out what happened with the whole situation with Ukraine, with CrowdStrike. The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation.”~verbatim, from Trump’s Perfect Call

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    Flying from Baghdad to Erbil is like flying from the Moon to Miami. The differences are stunning indeed. Compared to Baghdad, Erbil (the provincial capital of Iraqi Kurdistan) is an oasis.
    Deplaning, we were greeted warmly. We were told we would no longer need to wear flack jackets.
    Erbil was modern and safe. If the rest of Iraq and Afghanistan look like the Kurdish region in 20 years, the American blood and treasure might have been worth it. The jury is still out on that.

    Candidate Trump promised to extract our armed forces from regional skirmishes in that region.
    It is one more promise he rightly intends to keep.
    The various tribes have been fighting with each other for 1,000 years.
    Additional American sacrifice may not change much. ISIS has been virtually destroyed.
    President Trump asks, are we to keep troops in Syria forever?

    The Turks are more than willing to fill the void.
    They can hold Assad in check and insure that the Islamic State doesn’t make a military comeback.
    They can also take the lead with displaced Syrian refugees. They will deal with the ISIS POW’s.
    More importantly, they represent an important counterbalance to Iranian ambitions.

    Legitimate concerns have been expressed that we are leaving our friends, the Kurds to the tender mercies of President Erdogan’s Turkish army. Erdogan is far from a trustworthy partner and certainly no friend of the Kurds. The Kurds are not completely sinless in the lingering dispute.
    Fear of a wholesale slaughter of Kurdish fighters is not unjustified.
    Abandoning trusted allies would send a chilling message to other allies in potential hotspots around the world.
    Critics claim that keeping a campaign promise would come at a heavy price.

    Undoubtably, President Trump has weighed all of these concerns before making his decision.
    He has threatened Erdogan, saying that moves against the Kurds will have disastrous consequences.
    Turkey desperately needs the United States and Western Europe for trade and capital.
    The Turks are still extremely sensitive whenever the issue of the Armenian genocide comes up.
    They want acceptance from the West. The Turks would be ostracized by the West for generations for anything resembling a repeat genocide of the Kurds.


    Some have said that we do not want a confrontation that could lead to a war with Turkey. That is true.
    It is also safe to say that the Turks cannot afford a confrontation, not just with us, but the rest of NATO as well.
    We must assume that President Trump received assurances that there would be no Kurdish genocide.
    Although evidence today suggests otherwise, Erdogan must know that Trump doesn’t bluff.
    It would be foolhardy for him to double cross this President.

    Europeans are clucking loudly about the President’s decision.
    Perhaps it is time for them (and NATO) to step up and take our place in Syria.
    If the primary mission has morphed into serving as a tripwire, stopping potential Turkish aggression,
    wouldn’t NATO troops be just as effective?

    https://townhall.com/columnists/gilg...ments-n2554635
    You forgot to mention:
    The opinions expressed by columnists are their own and do not represent the views of Townhall.com.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Boom.

    Why are WE always the ‘chosen ones’ [to borrow Trump’s theologically loaded phrase lol] to manage these things? It makes zero sense for our tax dollars going to NATO while NATO sits on its fricking thumbs while even more of our tax dollars goes to policing THEIR part of the world.

    Do you see NATO at our border helping to manage OUR immigration crisis? I literally made myself chuckle at the thought.

    Trump is a businessman so it’s easy to see why this sort of thing gets under his skin. All other politicians see our tax dollars as some sort inexhaustible fountain but Trump looks at it differently. One of the first things he did in foreign policy was to get NATO countries to pony-up.

    Now they can actually do something by taking over our ‘police duties’.
    Isis terrorism on the way in the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpet View Post
    You forgot to mention:
    The opinions expressed by columnists are their own and do not represent the views of Townhall.com.
    You forgot to add anything of substance lol.
    “I would like you to do us a favor, I would like you to find out what happened with the whole situation with Ukraine, with CrowdStrike. The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation.”~verbatim, from Trump’s Perfect Call

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpet View Post
    Isis terrorism on the way in the USA.
    Where we still have post-9/11 protections in place.

    Do you think Islamic terrorists simply decided to take a hiatus after 9/11?
    “I would like you to do us a favor, I would like you to find out what happened with the whole situation with Ukraine, with CrowdStrike. The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation.”~verbatim, from Trump’s Perfect Call

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    I agree with some of that but I see little in the way of benefit, for us, in the current order.

    Which is the essence of America First. Probably a big reason Trump wouldn’t win a popularity contest amongst European leaders. They have a big stake in the status quo.

    The world order we created is a huge benefit to us. History shows the European penchant for World Wars, crematoria, Inquisitions, colonial empires and mercantalism and the like are not now likely events. Japan and Germany are unlikely to attack us again. The trade deficit is actually just an issue used by isolationists who count on peoples ignorance. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-fr...trade-deficit/ Brookings is considered center left but there is a lot available on trump using the trade deficit to pander to the ignorant

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    Trump's foreign policy is not a policy at all. It is transactional and capricious and uninformed.
    There are literally 1000s of places where the US could choose at any time to withdraw. His decision to do so here and now
    was random, uninformed, dumb, and based on nothing in US national security interests.
    pelosivstrump.jpg

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    looks like leftists are really neocons aren't they?

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    The US can't disengage from the Middle East when it supports the criminals of Izrael and sells weapons to every country there.

    In order to disengage- as Trump said he would- both of those points require finalization. What did he do ? He went against international law and US convention and set up a US embassy in illegally-occupied Jerusalem. Then he attempted to sign off the illegally-occupied Syrian Golan to his favorite fascists.

    These acts of stupidity will cement the US presence in the Middle East for years to come.
    "Politics is the entertainment division of the industrial-military complex". Frank Zappa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Boom.

    Why are WE always the ‘chosen ones’ [to borrow Trump’s theologically loaded phrase lol] to manage these things? It makes zero sense for our tax dollars going to NATO while NATO sits on its fricking thumbs while even more of our tax dollars goes to policing THEIR part of the world.

    Do you see NATO at our border helping to manage OUR immigration crisis? I literally made myself chuckle at the thought.

    Trump is a businessman so it’s easy to see why this sort of thing gets under his skin. All other politicians see our tax dollars as some sort inexhaustible fountain but Trump looks at it differently. One of the first things he did in foreign policy was to get NATO countries to pony-up.

    Now they can actually do something by taking over our ‘police duties’.
    the problem with NATO is that gad damned expansion that now has us funding the Donbass war -
    and beefing up our own beef ups (European Reassurance Initiative) to the point
    we are in a gad damned arms race to oblivion.

    I'm fine with NATO -but like you said this a partnership, not a shakedown of the USA's DoD

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    the problem with NATO is that gad damned expansion that now has us funding the Donbass war -
    and beefing up our own beef ups (European Reassurance Initiative) to the point
    we are in a gad damned arms race to oblivion.

    I'm fine with NATO -but like you said this a partnership, not a shakedown of the USA's DoD
    Useless as tits on a boar hog.
    “I would like you to do us a favor, I would like you to find out what happened with the whole situation with Ukraine, with CrowdStrike. The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation.”~verbatim, from Trump’s Perfect Call

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    anatta (10-13-2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    The US can't disengage from the Middle East when it supports the criminals of Izrael and sells weapons to every country there.

    In order to disengage- as Trump said he would- both of those points require finalization. What did he do ? He went against international law and US convention and set up a US embassy in illegally-occupied Jerusalem. Then he attempted to sign off the illegally-occupied Syrian Golan to his favorite fascists.

    These acts of stupidity will cement the US presence in the Middle East for years to come.
    we can continue of relationships where we feel the need to -like Israel, but we need not be stuck in Syria with no way out.

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