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Thread: Greta Thunberg

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    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    That's my secondary position. My primary position is that ' It's solar and therefore it's good ' You nuclear dinosaurs are simply in the way.
    Except that too shows an ignorance of the true costs of solar. It is those who want something but haven't got a clue about it that are the "dinosaurs." New and improved doesn't mean it's better. Solar is an economic loser and the proof is the cost of electricity in places and countries where it has become a dominant source of electrical power. Not one nation, state, country, that has adopted large use of solar has seen lower power costs. Instead, those costs have shot through the rafters. It is also a FACT that solar does little or nothing to reduce CO2 emissions. Germany is a great proof of that. Because electricity has virtually become a luxury item there, people are turning to using wood pellet stoves for heat because Germany has also banned new natural gas installations. People can't afford to heat their homes with inefficient electrical heating. CO2 emissions go up. Then because solar can't be relied on and can't be used at night, and Germany eliminated nuclear, they've been forced to build 25 new "clean" coal plants to replace the 8 nuclear ones and back up solar and wind with coal. The result is Germany's CO2 emissions are rising whereas in the US wider adoption of natural gas and slow elimination of coal is seeing a decrease.

    Solar is an expensive fail...

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post


    The casks have been tested far beyond any reasonable level of damage expected.

    I already showed that nuclear isn't astronomically expensive. That's a complete lie. Mining uranium is being done today and safely. You clearly and obviously know NOTHING about nuclear power, or anything else nuclear. Your response is based solely on nonsense, lies, and propaganda spread by the same sort of scientific illiterates in the environmental movement.

    The worst nuclear accident in the US has been Three Mile Island. Nobody died from that. Nobody even got cancer from it. It's been cleaned up. The cost of that clean up was less than for the BP Deepwater Horizon oil rig explosion and fire that killed 11 and caused massive environmental damage over hundreds of thousands of square miles. Nuclear isn't cooking birds like Ivanpah solar. It isn't getting smacked with huge environmental fines like the Solana array got in Arizona. It isn't subject to the weather either. Solana in Arizona got hit by a microburst thunderstorm that destroyed nearly half the array. Nuclear doesn't create new weather through heat island effects like solar.

    Nuclear also works 24/7 whether the sun shines or not. It works at night too. Solar is grossly inefficient and costly. It is utterly uncompetitive with other means of electrical generation. It is a complete loser.
    You're wasting time and energy with that ignorant peasant, all it ever does is spout bullshit constantly. Even Zion Lights has seen the future.

    A former Extinction Rebellion (XR) spokeswoman left the environmental group to campaign for nuclear power because she says it is the only way to deal with the climate crisis. Zion Lights, writing in the Daily Mail, also said that she had become unable to defend some of the group's claims. XR "peddle messages of doomsday gloom that alienate" and offer "little in the way of positive solutions", she added.

    The group calls on governments to take immediate action on climate change. It describes itself as an international "non-violent civil disobedience activist movement" and has been involved in a number of high-profile protests since it was formed in 2018. Last week it targeted UK newspapers - which it has accused of failing to report on climate change - by blocking printing presses and delaying distribution.

    She told the Mail she initially joined XR because its message was "listen to the scientists" and the role of spokesperson gave her a platform "to talk about what I truly felt mattered". However, she says she began to rethink her support for the group after an appearance on the BBC's Andrew Neil Show last October.

    She was asked about co-founder Roger Hallam's claim that science predicts six billion people will die this century due to climate change - a claim that he made to BBC's HARDtalk. Ms Lights said: "It's a headline-grabbing assertion - but unfortunately, it's also not true, or certainly not backed up by any evidence. As was obvious to anyone who knows me - and even to the casual viewer - I was plunged into a PR nightmare. "I could not defend the number, but as the official spokesperson nor could I be seen to condemn it. All I could do, instead, was flounder under the hot glare of the studio lights for what felt like an eternity."

    Ms Lights, who began campaigning about the environment as a student in the early 2000s, said she also had doubts about XR's approach of telling people "what not to do" and "peddling the notion that the solution to the climate crisis was to turn back the clock to a simpler time".

    Writing in the Telegraph, she said the campaigners who argued that we needed to all live with less - as she once did - had to accept this was not going to happen "and look to solutions instead".

    She said that "many within XR argue in favour of replacing fossil fuels entirely with renewables" but this was not a realistic option and she favoured "a pragmatic approach, rather than peer-group tribal pressure to stick to an outdated mainstream green line". Much of the green movement was "steeped in an anti-nuclear mindset", she said, "when any rational, evidence-based approach shows that a strategy including nuclear energy is the only realistic solution to driving down emissions at the scale and speed required".

    She denied she was making a U-turn, instead saying it was a "logical next step" in looking for solutions rather than "shouting ever more loudly about the problem".

    Ms Lights said she has since taken a role at campaign group Environmental Progress UK, whose campaigns include supporting the building of the Sizewell C nuclear power station in Suffolk. Nuclear power is planned to be a key part of the UK's future energy strategy.

    BBC environment analyst Roger Harrabin said its key benefit is it helps keep the lights on while producing hardly any of the CO2 emissions that are heating the climate.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54103163
    Last edited by cancel2 2022; 09-22-2020 at 08:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartenderElite View Post
    When computers used to fill 2 rooms, people said that they would never have any practical personal use.

    Wind & solar just need time. They're the future.
    Another idiot that doesn't understand basic physics, chemistry or indeed engineering, come to that. There is no Moore's Law for renewable unreliable energy, only fools think otherwise.

    Manhattan Institute scholar Mark P. Mills explains in layman-friendly physics and economics why mandates and subsidies cannot jumpstart an energy revolution that rapidly replaces fossil fuels with wind turbines, solar panels, and batteries.
    The entire 20-page study is worth reading. Here I highlight some of the report’s key points regarding batteries, Moore’s Law, and the physical limitations of wind turbines and solar photovoltaics.

    “Availability”—having energy when you want it—“is the single most critical feature of any energy infrastructure.” The pervasive non-availability of energy is what chiefly hobbled economic and social progress in pre-modern times. The comparative ease and low cost of storing fossil fuels and other conventional energies is “why, so far, more than 90 percent of America’s electricity, and 99 percent of the power used in transportation” come from those sources.

    Climate campaigners claim battery technology will soon make renewable electricity available to all with little or no fossil-fuel backup. However, the expense would be formidable. It costs less than $1 a barrel to store oil or energy-equivalent quantities of natural gas and coal, but battery storage of the same amount of energy “costs roughly $200.” In other words, “the cost to store energy in grid-scale batteries is . . . about 200-fold more than the cost to store natural gas to generate electricity when it’s needed.”

    Batteries are getting cheaper and lighter, but not enough to economically replace fossil fuels for machines that move large numbers of people, grow food, or mine minerals and raw materials. For example, “the energy equivalent of the aviation fuel actually used by an aircraft flying to Asia would take $60 million worth of Tesla-type batteries weighing five times more than that aircraft.”

    Faced with such impediments, some new energy economy enthusiasts claim renewables are on the verge of the same sort of accelerating efficiency gains that occurred in the information technology sector, as predicted by Intel co-founder Gordon Moore in 1965.

    That is not happening. As Varun Sivaram, chief technology officer of India’s largest renewable energy company, observed in April 2015:

    Earlier this month, Moore’s law—the prediction that the number of transistors on an integrated circuit would double every two years—turned 50 years old.

    It so happens that the silicon solar panel, the dominant variety in the market today, is about the same age—roughly 52 years old. And over the last half-century, while the computing power of an identically sized microchip increased by a factor of over a billion, the power output of an identically sized silicon solar panel more or less doubled.

    Here’s how Mills puts the same point: “If photovoltaics scaled by Moore’s Law, a single postage-stamp-size solar array would power the Empire State Building. If batteries scaled by Moore’s Law, a battery the size of a book, costing three cents, could power an A380 to Asia.”

    Why doesn’t Moore’s Law apply to the energy sector? Miniaturization dramatically increased the power of integrated circuits and decreased the cost of computational devices. However, miniaturizing renewables would turn them into children’s toys. To collect enough of nature’s diffuse energy to power a modern society, wind turbines and solar arrays must be huge. Unsurprisingly, the size, mass, and industrial footprints of renewable facilities increased over time.

    Moore’s law does not apply because the “challenge in storing and processing information using the smallest possible amount of energy is distinct from the challenge of producing energy, or of moving or reshaping physical objects.” Mills elaborates:

    The world of logic is rooted in simply knowing and storing the fact of the binary state of a switch—i.e., whether it is on or off. Logic engines don’t produce physical action but are designed to manipulate the idea of the numbers zero and one. Unlike engines that carry people, logic engines can use software to do things such as compress information through clever mathematics and thus reduce energy use. No comparable compression options exist in the world of humans and hardware.

    The cost of renewables has declined 10-fold in recent decades. However, as with fossil fuel combustion, which also achieved rapid efficiency gains when first commercialized, the “path of improvement” for renewables has begun to exhibit “diminishing returns.” That is inevitable given the inherent “physics-constrained limits of energy systems.” Mills explains:

    Solar arrays can’t convert more photons than those that arrive from the sun. Wind turbines can’t extract more energy than exists in the kinetic flows of moving air. Batteries are bound by the physical chemistry of the molecules chosen.”

    For combustion engines, the Carnot Efficiency Limit dictates a theoretical maximum conversion of heat into useful work of about 80 percent. Today’s best hydrocarbon engines achieve about 50-60 percent conversion efficiency, so there’s “still room for improvement” but nothing like the “revolutionary advances” achieved in the early “decades after invention.”

    For wind, the Betz Limit holds that a spinning blade can capture no more than about 60 percent of the kinetic energy of moving air. “Modern turbines already exceed 45 percent conversion.” Hence, a further “10-fold improvement is not possible.”

    Similarly, for photovoltaic cells, the Shockley-Queisser Limit determines that PVs can convert no more than about 33 percent of photons into electrons, and modern PVs achieve more than 26 percent efficiency. Thus, there are also “no 10-fold gains left” for PVs.

    Mills concludes “there is no possibility of a near-term transition” to a new energy economy. Coal, oil, and natural gas “are the world’s principal energy resource today and will continue to be so in the foreseeable future.”
    https://cei.org/blog/world-not-cusp-...volution-study

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    So?

    in 1920 oil was becoming our primary energy source
    In 1820 coal was becoming our primary energy source
    In 1720 we chopped down forests and burned them for energy

    Where will we be 300 years from now? Adopting nuclear makes total sense. We can safely store the waste and if there's enough of it, someone will figure out how to make money off it.

    The proof solar and wind don't work is already out there. Germany's got the highest cost per kilowatt hour of any country and is the leader in solar. All the other top solar users have high per kilowatt costs too. Germany's grid is less stable because of solar as well, just as California's is becoming (highest kilowatt cost in the US). Germany is also experiencing an INCREASE in CO2 emissions because of increased use of wood pellet heaters (due to banning natural gas use), and a return to "clean" coal to replace nuclear they got rid of, along with the need to have a power source when solar isn't producing.
    That last can be handled by hydrogen.

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    "Moore's Law."

    I guess it applies. Until human ingenuity finds an efficient way of storing the energy.

    I'm sure Moore's Law applied to big computers for awhile, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartenderElite View Post
    "Moore's Law."

    I guess it applies. Until human ingenuity finds an efficient way of storing the energy.

    I'm sure Moore's Law applied to big computers for awhile, too.
    Did you actually read that article?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartenderElite View Post
    When computers used to fill 2 rooms, people said that they would never have any practical personal use.

    Wind & solar just need time. They're the future.
    How? Why do you think this?

    I think nuclear is the future and I can explain exactly why I think that...in excruciating detail. Can you do the same?
    Don't be afraid to see what you see

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guille View Post
    How? Why do you think this?

    I think nuclear is the future and I can explain exactly why I think that...in excruciating detail. Can you do the same?
    Yes. Yes I can.

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    I heard someone say that we have moved on from global warming as the outrage of the day, as we had before moved on from #METOO.....We are now on the BLM outrage.

    What comes next and causes us to forget about BLM..."Oh THat....Who cares"?

    Should we start a poll as to what will be present by our betters?
    I choose my own words like the Americans of olden times........before this dystopia arrived.

    DARK AGES SUCK!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartenderElite View Post
    Yes. Yes I can.
    No you can't!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartenderElite View Post
    Yes. Yes I can.
    You can what? Explain in detail why nuclear is bad or shouldn't be used? I know I can explain why it should be used. Or, is an ad hominem, so common to the Left when faced with facts, all you have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BartenderElite View Post
    Yes. Yes I can.
    Great. I'll go first. Efficient energy generation is really nothing more than being able to boil water. Consistent delivery of energy means you've got to be ale to boil water 24/7. You like like wind and solar. Wind isn't 24/7, neither is solar...unless you're collecting solar in orbit. The problem with that is that you're not talking about solar anymore, you're talking about microwaves. They have to be sent down to the surface...to boil water and the collectors are subject to all kinds of nasty stuff in space not to mention they'd still not be efficient because they'd be eclipsed. so...we're right back to the surface again and there are two ways I know of to boil a shitload of water here, one is fossil fuels and the other is nuclear. I am going to go out on a limb here and say you don't like fossil fuels so the process of elimination leaves us with...nuclear.
    Don't be afraid to see what you see

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guille View Post
    Great. I'll go first. Efficient energy generation is really nothing more than being able to boil water. Consistent delivery of energy means you've got to be ale to boil water 24/7. You like like wind and solar. Wind isn't 24/7, neither is solar...unless you're collecting solar in orbit. The problem with that is that you're not talking about solar anymore, you're talking about microwaves. They have to be sent down to the surface...to boil water and the collectors are subject to all kinds of nasty stuff in space not to mention they'd still not be efficient because they'd be eclipsed. so...we're right back to the surface again and there are two ways I know of to boil a shitload of water here, one is fossil fuels and the other is nuclear. I am going to go out on a limb here and say you don't like fossil fuels so the process of elimination leaves us with...nuclear.
    Well, you can use a heated gas too. The least efficient is turning light into photovoltaic energy using what amounts to a combination battery and thermocouple. Using air pressure and movement to convert that to mechanical energy then electricity is a bit better but still inefficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Well, you can use a heated gas too. The least efficient is turning light into photovoltaic energy using what amounts to a combination battery and thermocouple. Using air pressure and movement to convert that to mechanical energy then electricity is a bit better but still inefficient.
    Mechanical energy bothers me becuase it has a very short window of efficiency. Photovoltaic needs a storage matrix and with our current tech level guess what that will be made out of.

    btw, I already know you know.
    Don't be afraid to see what you see

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Except that too shows an ignorance of the true costs of solar.
    Thankfully, facts on the ground relegate your complaint to ' sour grapes ' . You should take a drive through the magnificent turbine farms of Northern Spain. Or you could always get your lead suit on and go tour a Roentgen blaster. Careful with your nuts.
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