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Thread: In Defense of Columbus: An Exaggerated Evil

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    Default In Defense of Columbus: An Exaggerated Evil


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    28 minutes. I don't have time right now to watch that. I think the best solution to this is to do what the Hispanics have done "Dia de La Raza".

    "Da de la Raza is the celebration of the Hispanic heritage of Latin America and brings into it all the ethnic and cultural influences making it distinctive.'
    https://www.tripsavvy.com/dia-de-la-raza-1635468

    A good way for the US to celebrate it's diverse ethnic heritage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    OK. I went back and listened to it.
    I have no problem with Columbus and the Conquistadors being presented as any other Conquering Group, that's what happened through out History.
    The PC Fascists have all been instructed to 'Hate Columbus', so that's what they do.

    My preference is to use 'Columbus' as a unifying figure. 'Dia de la Raza' seems like the perfect route to take. Old World meets New World. A New Race is born. A Celebration of the Diversity.

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    Leave the name 'Columbus' out of it and just celebrate the Day. 'Dia de la Raza'. I can't think of a more unifying concept. (Leave the details for the historical buffs)

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    The Fox News effect - invent some horrific outrage by PC fascists (aka, Wars on Christmas, Wars on Columbus, Wars on Easter) and watch the buck-toothed hillbilly base leap like starving dogs to latch onto the red meat.


    I have literally met zero people who said they hate Columbus.

    I imagine there are people in indigenous communities who do not prefer to think of Columbus as a great hero.

    The thing is, he does not deserve an American national holiday. And as far as I can tell, most states have eliminated Columbus day as a paid day off for state workers.

    That Columbus is a very consequential figure of note in the pantheon of history there can be no doubt. That his voyages in the 1490s changed the course of history is indisputable.

    But Columbus never set foot or even sighted the landmass of the United States.

    Columbus never admitted that he failed to find or trek to east Asia. Dumb ass!

    He are his brothers are widely known to have be cruel and capricious to both native indigenous people and to his Spaniard underlings themselves.

    The Vikings were the first European here, and obviously Columbus did not discover America.


    That Columbus changed history is beyond question. What is worthy of question is whether the conquest of the Americas had to go down the way it did. I do not think the cruelty, the slavery, the murder, the rape were necessary on the scale it happened. Others are free to disagree. Yes, we all know there were natives who were cruel and violent. It is also worth noting that there were quite a few Spanish Dominican missionaries and French explorers who were respectful to native cultures and tried to advocate for them.

    History is obviously not replete with good guys on one side and bad guys on the other. But as Europeans and the descendants of Europeans, most of us are obliged to ask ethical questions about how the conquest and colonization of the Americas went down - and how those acts have echoed through history even into the present day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    The Fox News effect - invent some horrific outrage by PC fascists (aka, Wars on Christmas, Wars on Columbus, Wars on Easter) and watch the buck-toothed hillbilly base leap like starving dogs to latch onto the red meat.


    I have literally met zero people who said they hate Columbus. .
    Hatred of Columbus is a very common thing. I'm actually surprised you haven't met anyone who hates him.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columb...s_celebrations

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    History is replete with Stories of Conquest. It was always brutal. Spoils went to the Victor. So ... there shouldn't be any surprises.
    Good, Bad, or Whatever, we have a chance to turn the Event into something Positive, a Day of the Race. A unique way to foster 'unity' among our diverse selves.

    I have a friend that can go on and on about 'the genocide and cruelty of Columbus'. It seems to be the current 'two minutes of Hate' used by the PC Fascists with their Trump-like goal of 'Division and Hatred'.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    The Fox News effect - invent some horrific outrage by PC fascists (aka, Wars on Christmas, Wars on Columbus, Wars on Easter) and watch the buck-toothed hillbilly base leap like starving dogs to latch onto the red meat.


    I have literally met zero people who said they hate Columbus.

    I imagine there are people in indigenous communities who do not prefer to think of Columbus as a great hero.

    The thing is, he does not deserve an American national holiday. And as far as I can tell, most states have eliminated Columbus day as a paid day off for state workers.

    That Columbus is a very consequential figure of note in the pantheon of history there can be no doubt. That his voyages in the 1490s changed the course of history is indisputable.

    But Columbus never set foot or even sighted the landmass of the United States.

    Columbus never admitted that he failed to find or trek to east Asia. Dumb ass!

    He are his brothers are widely known to have be cruel and capricious to both native indigenous people and to his Spaniard underlings themselves.

    The Vikings were the first European here, and obviously Columbus did not discover America.


    That Columbus changed history is beyond question. What is worthy of question is whether the conquest of the Americas had to go down the way it did. I do not think the cruelty, the slavery, the murder, the rape were necessary on the scale it happened. Others are free to disagree. Yes, we all know there were natives who were cruel and violent. It is also worth noting that there were quite a few Spanish Dominican missionaries and French explorers who were respectful to native cultures and tried to advocate for them.

    History is obviously not replete with good guys on one side and bad guys on the other. But as Europeans and the descendants of Europeans, most of us are obliged to ask ethical questions about how the conquest and colonization of the Americas went down - and how those acts have echoed through history even into the present day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    Columbus was paid off by Corporate Capitalist to discover America!
    Melchizedek

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    Quote Originally Posted by MASON View Post
    Columbus was paid off by Corporate Capitalist to discover America!
    I think he was trying to get to China and the Spice Islands?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    History is replete with Stories of Conquest. It was always brutal. Spoils went to the Victor. So ... there shouldn't be any surprises.
    Good, Bad, or Whatever, we have a chance to turn the Event into something Positive, a Day of the Race. A unique way to foster 'unity' among our diverse selves.

    I have a friend that can go on and on about 'the genocide and cruelty of Columbus'. It seems to be the current 'two minutes of Hate' used by the PC Fascists with their Trump-like goal of 'Division and Hatred'.
    Come on Jack!Columbus came here because the women were Topless
    Melchizedek

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I think he was trying to get to China and the Spice Islands?
    Fake news!
    Melchizedek

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    Hatred of Columbus is a very common thing. I'm actually surprised you haven't met anyone who hates him.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columb...s_celebrations
    Hate is a strong word. It is a conspicuously powerful and negative emotion.

    I believe most of the people I know do not invest their emotions hating a guy they never met and has been dead for 500 years.

    People have lots of opinions about Columbus. Opinion is not a synonym for hate.

    People are allowed to re-evaluate the historical legacy of Columbus, without being called PC fascists by Fox News.

    The historical legacy of prominent humans are being assessed all the time. In the past 25 years, U.S. Grant went from being a terrible, corrupt president, to being a well-above-average president; a president of significant stature.

    A whole garden industry was developed by the rightwing to enshrine the legacy of Ronald Reagan as an almost mythical hero. The slow, almost imperceptible trajectory of history appears to be re-assessing Raygun for what he really was - a barely competent nitwit, who committed crimes against the Constitution, probably should have been impeached, and whose hatred of Unions and affinity for deregulated capitalism did more than its fair share to commence the slow, inexorable death spiral of the middle class.

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    "REAGAN PLAYED INFORMANT ROLE FOR FBI IN `40S"
    "As a budding politician in Hollywood`s acting community after World War II, Ronald Reagan was a confidential informant for the FBI, according to records released by the bureau."
    "The FBI documents, obtained by the San Jose Mercury News in a freedom-of- information request, show that Reagan, identified as ''T-10,'' told agents about pro-Communist influences in the Screen Actors Guild and other Hollywood organizations.
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...710-story.html

    You must not get out much, Cypress. Even Thomas Jefferson is under attack for fucking his slave, Sally Hemmings (his wife's half sister).

    "Sarah "Sally" Hemings (c. 1773 – 1835) was an enslaved woman of mixed race owned by President Thomas Jefferson. According to the New York Times, there is a "growing historical consensus" among scholars that, as a widower, Jefferson had a long-term relationship with Hemings, and that he was the father of her six children[1] born after the death of his wife Martha Jefferson, who was the half-sister of Sally Hemings. Four of Hemings' children survived to adulthood.[2] Hemings died in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 1835.[3]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings


    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Hate is a strong word. It is a conspicuously powerful and negative emotion.

    I believe most of the people I know do not invest their emotions hating a guy they never met and has been dead for 500 years.

    People have lots of opinions about Columbus. Opinion is not a synonym for hate.

    People are allowed to re-evaluate the historical legacy of Columbus, without being called PC fascists by Fox News.

    The historical legacy of prominent humans are being assessed all the time. In the past 25 years, U.S. Grant went from being a terrible, corrupt president, to being a well-above-average president; a president of significant stature.

    A whole garden industry was developed by the rightwing to enshrine the legacy of Ronald Reagan as an almost mythical hero. The slow, almost imperceptible trajectory of history appears to be re-assessing Raygun for what he really was - a barely competent nitwit, who committed crimes against the Constitution, probably should have been impeached, and whose hatred of Unions and affinity for deregulated capitalism did more than its fair share to commence the slow, inexorable death spiral of the middle class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    "REAGAN PLAYED INFORMANT ROLE FOR FBI IN `40S"
    "As a budding politician in Hollywood`s acting community after World War II, Ronald Reagan was a confidential informant for the FBI, according to records released by the bureau."
    "The FBI documents, obtained by the San Jose Mercury News in a freedom-of- information request, show that Reagan, identified as ''T-10,'' told agents about pro-Communist influences in the Screen Actors Guild and other Hollywood organizations.
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...710-story.html

    You must not get out much, Cypress. Even Thomas Jefferson is under attack for fucking his slave, Sally Hemmings (his wife's half sister).

    "Sarah "Sally" Hemings (c. 1773 – 1835) was an enslaved woman of mixed race owned by President Thomas Jefferson. According to the New York Times, there is a "growing historical consensus" among scholars that, as a widower, Jefferson had a long-term relationship with Hemings, and that he was the father of her six children[1] born after the death of his wife Martha Jefferson, who was the half-sister of Sally Hemings. Four of Hemings' children survived to adulthood.[2] Hemings died in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 1835.[3]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings
    I do not accept the premise that just because one started hearing more complaints about Columbus, Jefferson, et al. it must mean that “hate” of these men has increased.

    I could walk around and ask my neighbors, my relatives, my friends if any of them hate Columbus or Jefferson. And the number that would answer in the affirmative? I predict the probability is exactly zero percent any would say they hate Columbus.

    I am by disposition and training inclined to considering multiple hypotheses and alternative explanations.

    The equation “More reports of complaints about Columbus" = "Increased hate of Columbus” is not one I am required to accept at face value.

    Here is an alternative explanation >>

    Until 30 years ago, the news and television media only reported what white men thought. In the white male community, Jefferson and Columbus were thought of as deities, god-like figures beyond reproach.

    In the past two decades the media has at least started reporting the opinions of people other than white males. Other American communities.

    I seriously doubt that Native indigenous people ever thought of Christopher Columbus as a Saint-like figure that should be worshipped as a deity; a human beyond criticism and reproach.

    I seriously doubt that black Americans ever thought of the slave owners Thomas Jefferson and George Washington as their personal heroes, flawless historical figures approaching god-like status.

    Wrapping Up: The fact we are seeing more “complaints” about Jefferson and Columbus may not be attributable to increased “hate”. It may very well be that the viewpoints of minority ethnic or socio-economic communities have belatedly filtered into the media and our collective consciousness in a way they did not for the first 200 years of the Republic.

    Lesson here - There is never a bad time for introspection and honesty about historical figures.
    Last edited by Cypress; 08-29-2019 at 08:11 AM. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    Hatred of Columbus is a very common thing. I'm actually surprised you haven't met anyone who hates him.
    It is not a common thing except in areas with a large indigenous population. He is despised here in Anishinaabe'aki (Ojibwe ancestral lands) as the father of genocide. Every year the Native students and faculty get together to petition the university to celebrate Indigenous Peoples' Day rather than Columbus Day.
    Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever. -- Gandhi

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