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Thread: Americans Paid $90 Billion MORE In Taxes After Republican Tax Cut

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    I would say it's par for the course; you promise a tax cut, but end up paying more in taxes in the end. Typical Conservatism.
    That should make a person happy who is always whining about wanting more government revenue while also admitting people did pay less taxes. He fails to mention more people were working and wages increased (which he attributed to minimum wage increases).

    So, individuals paid less taxes, government got more revenue, more people were working, and minimum wage increased wages. What a terrible economic situation!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    Like what do you mean? Other than the obviously fake anecdotes you shared, what are you talking about?

    If we had free public colleges, we wouldn't need Pell Grants.

    So...who is the one who wants to get rid of Pell Grants? Me.

    Who is the one who wants to keep them, leading to the possibility of the abuse you invented? You.
    I would not keep them as they are today. Your free college would be at an astronomical cost and lead to increased cost because colleges would spend more if they knew students weren't having to pay for it. There are ways to provide free college for many without having to start a new federal program (you do want a federal program, right?) or increase costs and take away the incentive for students to take advantage.

    Facts learned from experience are not fake anecdotes. You just can't admit any waste or students taking advantage of benefits and are too lazy to research the issue and are obviously ignorant of how educational assistance works.

    Your lack of knowledge of education policy is only surpassed by your lack of knowledge of civil liberties when you claimed you cannot be prosecuted for assaulting or killing a Nazi because they are an "inherent threat." I'm still not sure if you were really serious or if you actually believe such easily disprovable information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    Well, gee, if we had free public colleges, we wouldn't need Pell Grants, would we?
    Right, we would have even a bigger mess and 500 new colleges pop up ready to take government money. "Come to my college. You get straight A's and never have to study. We will even pay you $1,000 to enroll because they government is going to pay for everything." That is already happening today with charter schools and for-profit private colleges. The online schools make it even easier to do nothing for your courses.

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    Imagine that. Confiscating less of people's money results in higher revenues. Who would've thought?

    Democrats protecting an endless epidemic of illegal immigrant rape, theft, and murder forfeits their right to peddle treasonous lunatic talking points like "Defending the Constitution makes the NRA domestic terrorists." Breaking our oaths to disarm only law-abiding Americans to remove only the guns that almost no one is using is idiotic and illegal. Guns save lives, prevent crime, and deter tyranny...until Democrats disarm everyone but those "racist" cops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    Pell Grants have zero return? You literally JUST SAID "On the other hand, many students do benefit from these loans and grants and I have no problem with them.".
    Another dishonest post based on something I never said. I did not say Pell Grants have zero return--as you point out I said many students do benefit. I saw our students fill many of the nursing and teaching jobs in my area.

    What I said was: "Because the money provides jobs or adds to GDP is less important than making the public pay programs with zero return


    You know this is what I said because you included it in your post. It says nothing about Pell Grants. Another straw man you are arguing against.

    You talked about defense spending which does nothing toward meeting current military needs--that is an example of zero return. Or rebuilding projects in Afghanistan and Iraq that pay contractors for work never done or never finished gives us zero return (other than providing bribes to government leaders to keep their support).

    You are so dishonest to say I said Pell Grants have zero return when you included my post word for word. You either don't read carefully or make-up stuff to argue against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    Well, gee, if we had free public colleges, we wouldn't need Pell Grants, would we?
    If somebody gave me free food, rent, and transportation I would not have to work. What is wrong with parents and students working to pay for their education like so many of us did and many still do. A student can work minimum wage full-time in the summer and make enough pay tuition and fees at many community colleges.

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    meth rant ^^

  8. The Following User Groans At reagansghost For This Awful Post:

    Flash (08-24-2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    Conclude that greed lies with individuals---private or public and neither is immune from taking advantage.
    But it's not the public doing that, per your own post.

    You said it was the private taking advantage of the public because the public agencies lack enforcement with true teeth that can really stop the fraud that you are crying crocodile tears over.


    When government (or anybody) makes money available private companies, government institutions, and individuals will find ways to take advantage of it.
    So in your lazy BoTh SiDeS aRe ThE sAmE scenario, how is the government taking advantage of the government? What are you talking about?


    I guess you think it is ok if doctors, dentists, chiropractors, ambulance companies, medical supply houses fraudulently take billions from the government
    I don't think it's OK, but what you've failed to show is how they would do that with a single payer despite already doing that with private insurance.

    And BTW - all those things you mentioned above already take advantage of the system by way of the chargemaster.

    We can't have an honest discussion about health care until you understand what a chargemaster is, and how it is used by providers and private insurers to set mutually beneficial costs.


    all that fraud and waste provides them a job. You don't care if it is not productive; at least that is the attitude you have toward government waste.
    WTF are you talking about? Why do you always have to speak in vague generalities? You're here, admitting that it's private companies defrauding the government. So the problem then, is that private companies defraud the government. So really, your argument is not an argument against government, but rather an argument against private companies who seem to always seek to take advantage of everyone. So thanks for making the case for government-run health care.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    LV426 Uses calendar year rather than fiscal year because it fits his (alternative) facts.
    The Russia Tax Cut started on the calendar year, not the fiscal year, and what difference does it make when the tax cut started?

    Also, the only place one can look for actual revenue numbers is here.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    Why don't we used updated data from the Treasury Department
    FY 2001 (Deficit/Surplus)
    Oct: 11,321
    Nov: 23,690
    Dec: −32,66
    Jan: −76,379
    Feb: 48,168
    Mar: 50,662
    Apr: −189,796
    May: 27,919
    Jun: −31,862
    Jul: −2,820
    Aug: 79,990
    Sep: −35,271
    YTD: -127,045
    https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/file...ts/mts0302.pdf (Table 1, p.2)
    There was a deficit for six month of the FY2001 fiscal year. This shows a deficit for the entire year, but whatever annual figure we choose it is obvious the 2001 recession of 8 months affected the deficit/surplus and there was no surplus for much of the year.
    Debt:
    1996: 5,224,810,939,135.73
    1997: 5,413,146,011,397.34
    1998: 5,526,193,008,897.62
    1999: 5,656,270,901,615.43
    2000: 5,674,178,209,886.86
    2001: 5,807,463,412,200.06
    Despite this "surplus" even before 2001 the debt continued to increase every year. It is only a "surplus" if we don't count some of the spending. Claiming a surplus while your debt is increasing is good PR but not an accurate picture. People use publicly held debt or intergovernmental debt when convenient.
    The distinction of when to start counting is nonsense and an attempt to make your argument work when it doesn't.

    You've unilaterally changed the standard of counting surpluses to start on the fiscal year rather than the calendar year for no reason other than to post-hoc win an argument.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    Because you are too lazy to check out the Pell Grant problem--it might not fit your politics. You are willing to accept the waste for military but not for social programs--what a crock. Government waste is government waste.
    I never said I was willing to accept waste in the military. In fact, I've said several times that our military is not capable of waging 21st century warfare.

    I don't know how I'm supposed to "check" the Pell Grant program; you're the one who said on the one hand it's wasteful, but then in literally the same post, said it was beneficial.


    Ask any college professor if he has students who were enrolled but never attended class. It may not be a large percentage, but would amount to many millions of dollars.
    So this gets back to why I think you're lying because no professor would know who in their class gets a Pell Grant and who doesn't. That information is not something the registrar or bursar, or financial aid office would even give to a professor because that could result in bias. So ethically speaking, it's suspect that you can claim to know who in your classes got Pell Grants and who didn't. I don't know of any Financial Aid office that would share that info with professors. So I think you're making shit up.


    You justify wasted spending as providing jobs
    When did I do that? Never.


    Welfare for defense contractors is money their wealthy friends just like Medicare and Medicaid is money for their wealthy doctor, dentist, chiropractor, hospital and medical supply friends and food stamps is welfare for their wealthy farmers, food processors and distributors, truckers, and super market friends and college loans and grants is welfare for their wealthy board of regent, contractor, and administrative friends.
    So you're an idiot if you think that private insurers and providers don't already collude with one another to set mutually beneficial costs that adds to their bottom line. And you're also an idiot if you think that if you ceased with private insurers, the single payer would collude with providers to set mutually beneficial costs that adds to their bottom line when the single payer has no bottom line profit obligations to meet.

    You've never once negotiated for anything in your life, and it shows.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    Finally, you understand. The private companies are taking advantage of government programs. The people are committing fraud and Medicare is letting them by paying almost anybody that asks for money.
    So then you support more funding for Medicare fraud enforcement? Nope.

    So what is the point of what you're saying?
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    Your black-white mentality wants to blame private companies and defend low income recipients
    You literally just said that private companies were the ones engaging in fraud:

    The private companies are taking advantage of government programs.

    The people are committing fraud
    How are the people committing fraud when it comes to Medicare? And when it comes to the Pell Grants example you gave, that is suspect too because it's all based on your anecdote. Then you very lazily say I should "talk to professors"...well I did that and you know what every professor I talked to said? That they don't know who in their classes get Pell Grants and who doesn't, and they couldn't know that information anyway because the University's financial aid office would never divulge that information to a professor because of the ethical issues that arise from that.

    So that's why I know what you're saying is bullshit. You do that a lot; you substitute your own personal standard as the standard, or you just make shit up.


    Liberals are willing to believe in government fraud and welfare if you couch it in terms of private businesses benefiting but not if you include low-income because we can't criticize those people. Conservatives do just the opposite.
    You just said that private companies defraud the government. The only instance you can conjure of people doing it is the anecdotal BS you are using as a substitute for fact. BS so apparent, it borders on the absurd.


    Fully staffing offices to investigate fraud would be very expensive and could never check out the 1 billion Medicare transactions per year.
    OK, so then it sounds to me that so long as for-profit health care exists, there will always be fraud. So the natural progression should be to do away with for-profit health care, if you want to do away with the fraud. You said yourself it was private companies defrauding the government for health care; so then the simple solution is to do away with for-profit health care, which would do away with the fraud that comes from for-profit companies who are defrauding the government, as you said yourself.

    So you are making the argument for government-run health care.


    You would spend more on government investigators than the waste---but that would be ok because more government employees is always good according to LV426.
    So Flash is doing to things here:

    On the one hand, he thinks the government defrauds itself (how? I don't know).
    Then on the other hand, he thinks private companies defraud the government (how? he doesn't say).

    There are only two solutions to this problem;

    1. Do away with for profit health care
    2. Increase enforcement funding and operations

    He wants to do neither; so really, he's just complaining about a problem and opposing all possible solutions because then he'd have nothing to complain about.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    LV426 is arguing with a straw man, again. I never said government was not productive vs. private companies.

    I talked about eliminating those jobs which are not productive or useful.

    Do you favor weapons systems the military does not need, military bases that are unnecessary, reconstruction projects in Afghanistan and Iraq that are never completed but have been paid for, students getting Pell grants who never attend class and are failing, etc. etc.

    These functions are not productive but the public is being forced to pay for them. Private companies also have many examples of inefficiency, but they can go bankrupt and the public does not have to spend their money on those companies.

    LV426 does not care if government wastes his money because he thinks all government spending is good.
    How long will it take you to understand that one cannot argue with a dishonest, low IQ idiot like LV426? Just saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    That should make a person happy who is always whining about wanting more government revenue while also admitting people did pay less taxes. He fails to mention more people were working and wages increased (which he attributed to minimum wage increases).
    Of course the wage increases are attributed mostly to the minimum wage increases, and you have yet to show any data that proves the contrary.

    If you subtract the wage growth for the top 1% out of total wage growth, and subtract the wage growth at the bottom that was attributed to minimum wage increases, what was the actual wage growth for workers? Nominal over the last 40 years.
    "Alien is a movie where nobody listens to the smart woman, and then they all die except for the smart woman and her cat. Four stars."

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