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Thread: Why We Always Need To Think Of The Collective...

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    Hello Howard the Duck,

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard the Duck View Post
    Is their some part of the OP that is logical?
    It's all logical to me. I wrote it. If you think none of it is logical then what are we if not human? The OP begins with something I would hope that everyone could agree on. 'We are human.' But please tell me what you think we are if not human? Thank you. And since that is correct, then there is at least some part of the OP which is logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard the Duck View Post
    You don't like individualism and capitalism,
    I say no such thing. I am very glad for both. You're making things up, not quoting the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard the Duck View Post
    but lack actual data to suggest that the standard tenets of totalitarianism (collectivism and socialism) are better.
    I do not advocate for totalitarianism. If it's not in the OP, please stop trying to hold me to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard the Duck View Post
    So, you ignore the human experience and deny that your rhetorical screed is a logical argument.
    Actually I maintain that the OP is indeed a logical argument. You are the one denying it. But you haven't actually shown how any of the OP is incorrect. All you've done so far is read some things into it which simply are not there. I'm still waiting for you to quote something from the OP and explain why you feel it is incorrect.
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    Hello Celticguy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    You go off track at "b".
    "b) Humans exist in societies. Societies serve the needs of the individuals."

    Which part of that do you disagree with?

    That humans live in societies?

    Or that societies serve the needs of the individuals.

    Well it would be hard to deny that we live in societies because we do; and it is certainly those societies which serve the needs of the individuals. Most humans would not survive long if deprived of their society. Nobody to offer a job, nobody to sell food, nobody to do anything for that lone individual human without a society. Some very resourceful humans might make it on their own. But most would not survive long. So it is correct to say that humans live in societies and those societies serve the needs of individual humans.
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    Hello StoneByStone,

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    As soon as I read the title, I knew the edgelord right-wing talking points were coming out.
    Well I don't mind having a conversation about it. There are a lot of misconceptions out there. A lot of those right wing talking points are myths. They can't back them up. I have yet to see anybody offer any reason that anything in the OP is in error. I base my position on logic. It's pretty straightforward.

    I'm listening, in case anybody has a logical consideration I got wrong or overlooked?

    Anybody?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Howard the Duck,



    It's all logical to me. I wrote it. If you think none of it is logical then what are we if not human? The OP begins with something I would hope that everyone could agree on. 'We are human.' But please tell me what you think we are if not human? Thank you. And since that is correct, then there is at least some part of the OP which is logical.



    I say no such thing. I am very glad for both. You're making things up, not quoting the OP.



    I do not advocate for totalitarianism. If it's not in the OP, please stop trying to hold me to it.



    Actually I maintain that the OP is indeed a logical argument. You are the one denying it. But you haven't actually shown how any of the OP is incorrect. All you've done so far is read some things into it which simply are not there. I'm still waiting for you to quote something from the OP and explain why you feel it is incorrect.
    I can never tell if leftists are serious when they advocate twisting the last best hope for mankind into the sort of thing it has defended mankind against for the past century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard the Duck View Post
    I can never tell if leftists are serious when they advocate twisting the last best hope for mankind into the sort of thing it has defended mankind against for the past century.
    Why can't these Leftists just accept that society is better when it's everybody for themselves and nobody is working together for the common good?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    Why can't these Leftists just accept that society is better when it's everybody for themselves and nobody is working together for the common good?
    I know, right? Even if we were serious, such a society would still have a better record than collectivism over the past 230 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard the Duck View Post
    I know, right? Even if we were serious, such a society would still have a better record than collectivism over the past 230 years.
    Yup, countries with both individualism and collectivism have never been able to reach the high standards of countries like Somalia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    It's pretty basic logic:

    a) We are humans.

    b) Humans exist in societies. Societies serve the needs of the individuals.

    c) If a majority of humans become sociopaths; then society will fail.

    SO:

    d) Individualism must be balanced with consideration for society. Most individuals must do something for society or society will fail.

    And,

    e) Since some are far more able to contribute, if they do contribute more, then society can do much more to enhance it's service to individuals.

    ***

    This is all a logical progression of facts and conclusions on the assumption that we want society to improve and continue to thrive.
    a) All humans are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights.

    b) Societies create governments. Government is force by definition & corruption by nature.

    c) If a majority of humans ignore who they are governed by, their society will be governed by the elitist snobs & crooks who enjoy a 2 standards of justice system, one for themselves & one for the masses.

    d) Individualism & individual rights are the foundation of the most successful of societies & the founding principles of the United States Of America. Individuals that accept personal responsibility & care for themselves & their families serve society to it’s greatest degree.

    e) There is no greater contribution to society than individual responsibility, hard work, innovation, honesty & private charity.

    And that is why we always have to think of the collective.
    And that is why we have to always think of the family first, then our country & the maintenance of individual liberty & our unalienable rights.

    It's the kind of guidance which, if followed by most members of society, leads to the quality of life continuing to improve in that society. Promoting the GENERAL welfare ensures domestic peace and tranquility, so that society will endure. Our Constitution wisely says so.
    The “general welfare” only as enumerated by our Constitution Article One, Section Eight as it applies to the national governance & everything else reserved to the States & the people as mandated by Amendment 10.

    Socialism is all about what is good for the society.
    Go tell the folks in Venezuela, North Korea, China, & Cuba that!

    Capitalism, while providing a lot for society, is also about what a shrewd and determined individual can do for himself. And that's wonderful in good measure. Just not always. It is only logical that these two pursuits must be balanced with one another.
    “Socialism is the equal sharing of the misery, capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings.” (Sr. Winston Churchill)

    What is the correct balance between selfish concerns and social concerns? Like it or not, humans are becoming more interconnected and interdependent as time progresses.
    Dependent on BIG corrupt authoritarian government because its agenda is to bribe the vote with taxpayer’s money. The perfect scam to enslave the masses to government reliance & thereby eliminate freedom and individual rights & seat & keep seated the elitist snobs & crooks.

    It is only natural and predictable that some will resist recognizing the collective in their own way. But emotional resistance is not logical. It's emotional.
    “Emotional” love of freedom and individual unalienable rights is the mother of all “LOGIC!”

    Logic says we need to consider the impact on society of what we do. The more people there are on this planet, the more that matters.
    Logic says we need to guard with jealous passion our Bill OF Rights, our individual liberty & our founding principles lest we are enslaved to a BIG smothering intrusive authoritarian government!

    There is nothing in our Constitution that says we will be a capitalist nation. Or a socialist one.
    Our Constitution is our written guarantee of individual rights and liberty & the restrictions on the size & scope of government. Thereby alone is the roadmap for capitalism & the harness on any socialist scamming government.

    Because the truth is: we don't have to choose. We can have both. We can take the best qualities of each, and minimize the downside of each. Mixing socialism with capitalism allows us to achieve the best balance between thinking of society and thinking of the individual.

    But as much as we allow ourselves to think of the individual, we must always give proper consideration for the collective.
    Socialism is the anti-mixer to facilitate good governance. Socialism is only practiced by political authoritarians. Its definition is “authority by force.” Capitalism is the freedom to do as you damned well wish. In America, its only restrictions are based in the principle that no action can violate the rights of another of life, liberty, property & the pursuit of happiness!
    "Government is force by definition and corruption by nature. The bigger the government, the greater the force and the greater the corruption."

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    Why can't these Leftists just accept that society is better when it's everybody for themselves and nobody is working together for the common good?
    Capitalism is everybody "working together" for themselves first, and thereby the "common good," fool!
    "Government is force by definition and corruption by nature. The bigger the government, the greater the force and the greater the corruption."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello StoneByStone,



    Well I don't mind having a conversation about it. There are a lot of misconceptions out there. A lot of those right wing talking points are myths. They can't back them up. I have yet to see anybody offer any reason that anything in the OP is in error. I base my position on logic. It's pretty straightforward.

    I'm listening, in case anybody has a logical consideration I got wrong or overlooked?

    Anybody?
    I disagree! the OP in my opinion is one of the most anti-logical things I ever read. Creating a hybridized capitalist/socialist governing system is like attempting to mix oil with water. Capitalism is the "FREE" market, not designed to deliver equality,but designed to deliver "EQUAL OPPORTUNITY" Socialism is fraudulent promises of equality based on lies, bribery & government force, financed by the labors of working folk!
    "Government is force by definition and corruption by nature. The bigger the government, the greater the force and the greater the corruption."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Celticguy,



    "b) Humans exist in societies. Societies serve the needs of the individuals."

    Which part of that do you disagree with?

    That humans live in societies?

    Or that societies serve the needs of the individuals.

    Well it would be hard to deny that we live in societies because we do; and it is certainly those societies which serve the needs of the individuals. Most humans would not survive long if deprived of their society. Nobody to offer a job, nobody to sell food, nobody to do anything for that lone individual human without a society. Some very resourceful humans might make it on their own. But most would not survive long. So it is correct to say that humans live in societies and those societies serve the needs of individual humans.
    The latter half.
    Only utopias do that and there are none nor have there been any.
    "Those who vote decide nothing. Those who count the vote decide everything." Joseph Stalin
    The USA has lost WWIV to China with no other weapons but China Virus and some cash to buy democrats.

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    Hello Celticguy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    The latter half.
    OK, that would be the part that says:

    "Societies serve the needs of the individuals."

    And you don't think that's true:

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    Only utopias do that and there are none nor have there been any.
    I disagree.

    All societies serve the needs of the individuals to some extent or another. The higher the average lifestyle of the society, the more individual needs are being performed by society. Without society, that lone individual would be completely self-reliant for food, clothing, shelter, EVERYTHING.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneByStone View Post
    Why can't these Leftists just accept that society is better when it's everybody for themselves and nobody is working together for the common good?
    You hate people of color asshole


    quit pretending

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robo View Post
    Capitalism is everybody "working together" for themselves first, and thereby the "common good," fool!
    That only actually happens when we have regulations to keep the egoists in line, fool!

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