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Thread: Has socialism already failed in Anerica

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    Hello Celticguy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    You will note that i included myself.
    Your premise is that greed is bad. Therefore any manistifacion is similarly bad.

    I refuse that paradigm.

    Franklin Raines chose to buy these loans knoqing full well they were rife with bad ones thereby legitimizing them. Wall Street had nothing to do with it.
    I realize you cannot accept this truth much less Barney Frank declaring the markets were sound two weeks before the takeover of the financial market players but it doesnt change these facts. I worked for Wachovia Securities while this was going down (and yes our CEO made some stupid buys stupid being far too kinda term).
    Government caused this by trying to buy black votes and hoping Gingrich's economy would be good enough to keep it hidden.
    I appreciate your individual experience and perspective as it gives reasoning for your view but personal anecdotes are not often indicative of the overall national story. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that selling multiple technically already defaulted loans which depend on borrower income going up in 5 years is risking everything on constant future growth - not a wise business model! It was little more than a race to the bottom to see who could crash first. And these are the people who claimed they didn't need existing regulation of their market? What they needed was more oversight, not less.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Flame on me, mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you go on my PERMANENT Ignore List. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I won't read a word you write, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: if you like my PIP, feel free to use it. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Celticguy,



    I appreciate your individual experience and perspective as it gives reasoning for your view but personal anecdotes are not often indicative of the overall national story. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that selling multiple technically already defaulted loans which depend on borrower income going up in 5 years is risking everything on constant future growth - not a wise business model! It was little more than a race to the bottom to see who could crash first. And these are the people who claimed they didn't need existing regulation of their market? What they needed was more oversight, not less.
    How is it that Frank and Dodd did not know this and alert Congress. They alone owned the oversight.
    Just because you don't understand it does not make it bad. Celticguy

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    I have no understanding of how politics works? Ok.

    What I do know is just because something is bi-partisan doesn't mean it does not have detractors. And I know for a bill to become law it must pass Congress and the President must sign it. So unless you are arguing Clinton mailed in his administration with over a year left the President did not sign it on his way out the door.
    It was a Gramm bill that he pushed for years and failed due to Dem resistance. He finally pushed it through and you call it bipartisan. Gramms wife was an Enron exec and they were ruthless in their desire to deregulate. They wanted access to all money in banks,not just investment, but deposits too.
    Much comes from overrated Greenspan who was a Libertarian and claimed with enough freedom, bankers would do right in the end.
    Remember when he castigated Brooksley Born after she warned them of what they were doing and how damaging it could be? The senators actually laughed at her . She was right.
    Last edited by Gonzomin; 07-22-2019 at 01:36 PM.

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    What we have in America is an oligopoly. Capitalism, like Socialism, does not exist in the real world. None of the so-called socialistic nations in Scandinavia are socialist. They have industry, people working and changing jobs and capitalistic county. They just spend a greater share of the countries revenue on safety nets and improving the lives of citizens.

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    Hello Celticguy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    How is it that Frank and Dodd did not know this and alert Congress. They alone owned the oversight.
    A weak argument and blame-shifting attempt.
    Last edited by PoliTalker; 07-22-2019 at 06:22 PM. Reason: 'shirting' is now 'shifting'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzomin View Post
    It was a Gramm bill that he pushed for years and failed due to Dem resistance. He finally pushed it through and you call it bipartisan. Gramms wife was an Enron exec and they were ruthless in their desire to deregulate. They wanted access to all money ion banks,not just investment, but deposits too.
    Mush comes from overrated Greenspan who was a Libertarian and claimed with enough freedom, bankers would do right in the end.
    Remember when he castigated Brooksley Born after she warned them of what they were doing and how damaging it could be? The senators actually laughed at her . She was right.
    I'm not sure if you are purposefully leaving out that Secretary Treasurer Robert Rubin pushed for this bill along with Clinton signing it (with over a year left in his administration) or are just ignorant to that fact. This bill was the basic definition of bi-partisanship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Celticguy,



    A weak argument and blame-shirting attempt.
    If all that was some grand gop conspiracy those two should have been sensatized to the risks.
    Fact is this was not partisan and they were intentionally concealing the situation until it could no longer be done.
    Just because you don't understand it does not make it bad. Celticguy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    Interesting, but shallow, the low interest loans on their own didn't cause the fall, it was Wall Street speculation encouraging those loans so that they could quickly wrap them into mortgage backed derivatives, they couldn't buy them up fast enough seeing profits, pure capitalism

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    Hello Celticguy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    If all that was some grand gop conspiracy those two should have been sensatized to the risks.
    We know they are lawmakers; but now they should also be law-enforcers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    Fact is this was not partisan and they were intentionally concealing the situation until it could no longer be done.
    How do you know that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Celticguy,



    We know they are lawmakers; but now they should also be law-enforcers?
    Oversight is part of their job


    How do you know that?
    How did they just happen to know which institutions to do what with when two weeks before there were no problems at all (as recorded in the Congressional record, not some idle quote) ?
    They knew the feces were en route to the rotary oscillator.
    Just because you don't understand it does not make it bad. Celticguy

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    Hello Celticguy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    Oversight is part of their job
    Such expansion of government doesn't sound very conservative, not the smallest government possible. Where in the Constitution does it say that Congress enforces the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    How did they just happen to know which institutions to do what with when two weeks before there were no problems at all (as recorded in the Congressional record, not some idle quote) ?
    They knew the feces were en route to the rotary oscillator.
    Got it. You've got nothing to back up what you say. It's nothing more than your opinion. Got it.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Flame on me, mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you go on my PERMANENT Ignore List. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I won't read a word you write, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: if you like my PIP, feel free to use it. It works well.

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    We do not have socialism in the United States. The post office isn't socialism. We have a crony capitalist system with a massive nanny state. That isn't socialism

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    I'm not sure if you are purposefully leaving out that Secretary Treasurer Robert Rubin pushed for this bill along with Clinton signing it (with over a year left in his administration) or are just ignorant to that fact. This bill was the basic definition of bi-partisanship.
    I am well aware that some Dems bought in. However, you are scraping the barrel looking for Dems that backed a Republican bill. Clinton may have bought in at least partly.But this was a culmination of a long term Repub/Banker belief that the Dems fought for years. Have you found any Repubs who did not back it?
    You are illogical. A person or 2 who gave in to a Repub Libertarian concept does not make it theirs. Nor does it place the responsibility on the Dems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzomin View Post
    I am well aware that some Dems bought in. However, you are scraping the barrel looking for Dems that backed a Republican bill. Clinton may have bought in at least partly.But this was a culmination of a long term Repub/Banker belief that the Dems fought for years. Have you found any Repubs who did not back it?
    You are illogical. A person or 2 who gave in to a Repub Libertarian concept does not make it theirs. Nor does it place the responsibility on the Dems.
    I'm illogical because Bill Clinton signed the legislation? I'm illogical because Clinton had advisers pushing for the legislation? I'm illogical because there were Democrats in Congress who backed it? Ok dude.

    And yes, it was a Republican sponsored deal. It was a Republican led Congress. But that doesn't change the above. And it's pretty damn funny to see you say a President holds no responsibility for legislation they sign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Celticguy,



    Such expansion of government doesn't sound very conservative, not the smallest government possible. Where in the Constitution does it say that Congress enforces the law?



    Got it. You've got nothing to back up what you say. It's nothing more than your opinion. Got it.
    Oversight is not enforcement.
    You may choose to wear blinders. I do not.
    Just because you don't understand it does not make it bad. Celticguy

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