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Thread: Has socialism already failed in Anerica

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Celticguy,



    "Isn’t this a clear example in recent memory that affected us all of socialism’s promise of paradise but instead delivered socialism’s disastrous reality?"

    No. It is a contrived example of it which does not look at capitalism's roll. Government did not tell Wall Street to create 'credit default swaps' to package these risky loans as ultra low risk investments.

    This is just another repackaging of the old myth that Wall Street bears no blame in The Great Recession. It is an attempt to rewrite history.
    Yes, it did. You write regulation such that they have choice but to find a means.
    Just because you don't understand it does not make it bad. Celticguy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    Read the article if youre interested.
    I'm never interested in White Nationalist Republican Racist Rhetoric- Like what THE HILL produces!

    So NO THANKS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzomin View Post
    Leaving aside that you are wrong. It was a Republican bill. They had the votes. I remember when it was pushed through Sen, Durbin announced that they fought all night trying to get concessions, but the bill put the American system in jeopardy. There were a couple of other Denms saying the same thing. No Repubs. Your lack of knowledge about the banking crisis is noted. It was signed by Clinton on the way out of office. It was not his bill. It was Gramm and Blileys. Gramms wife was an Enron exec. Phil had tried to get such a bill passed many times.
    This is some very interesting revisionist history. Someone needs to go back read the votes for when this bill passed. The final bill passed the House 362-57 and the Senate 90-8. Hard to get much more bi-partisan than that.

    Bill Clinton signed the bill on Nov 12, 1999. He left office Jan 20, 2001. So basically he signed it over a year before he left office. That isn't signing something on the way out of office.

    These are just simple facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    This is some very interesting revisionist history. Someone needs to go back read the votes for when this bill passed. The final bill passed the House 362-57 and the Senate 90-8. Hard to get much more bi-partisan than that.

    Bill Clinton signed the bill on Nov 12, 1999. He left office Jan 20, 2001. So basically he signed it over a year before he left office. That isn't signing something on the way out of office.

    These are just simple facts.
    Not quite. Gramm tried to get the bill through many times and the Dems voted it down. This time Gramm had the votes. Many of the Dems gave up their votes, since they were going to lose anyway, to wring concession out. They obviously did not get enough. The final numbers do not tell the story, nor the battles. .The vote finalized at something like 3 in the AM. It was the Dems who talked to reporters afterward talking about what a dangerous bill they just passed. You have no understanding of how politics works.
    Last edited by Gonzomin; 07-20-2019 at 11:25 PM.

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    And you are wrong about Lame duck too, https://sunlightfoundation.com/2009/...rnization-act/ Read the facts.

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    Hello Celticguy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    Yes, it did. You write regulation such that they have choice but to find a means.
    The regulations were not strong enough. They allowed greed to spoil the concept and foil the goal. The economy is great now but that one word does not paint the whole picture. Just because the economy is great does not mean that millions are not still struggling just to get by, or that home ownership is not way down. Where is the wealth of the country? I'll tell you where it is: In too few hands. The richest have a heavily disproportionate share because those on the struggling end have been screwed out of opportunity and success, held back by the greedy rich.

    How many people are living paycheck to paycheck, unable to get out of debt?

    How may people are paying usury interest rates to payday loan joints and can never escape car payments to buy-here-pay-here rip-off car lots?

    I wanted a used car one time and walked into one of those places to inquire about a car displayed outside I liked. I didn't know it wa a buy-here-pay-here. It didn't say that outside. It was a nice clean lot. I asked them how much. They wanted me to fill out a credit form before they would even answer. I said no. I explained that I had plenty of money and would be paying cash. They wouldn't even sell the car for cash! They showed me the door.

    What has gone wrong with our economy when money no longer talks?

    They wouldn't sell any cars for cash because those cars are worth so much more on credit. They put a GPS locator device on the car and hope the payments-only buyer defaults. Then they go repo the car and put it back on the lot. Often times they will sell the same car multiple times. Each time they sell it and repo it, they pocket all the payments made, then price it back up and get somebody else on the hook for it. In this way, they can get many times what the car is actually worth. No wonder they would not even sell it for cash.

    And that wasn't the only lot. That 'brand name' lot has multiple locations. Very impressive clean lot with modern marketing, clean office. I bet the guy who owns that business is filthy rich. He probably goes around scouting locations to set up additional lots cookie cutter style. Then he hires workers to dress well, look impressive, all appearing on the up and up. And what he really does is get struggling young and dumb buyers on the hook for regular payments. No credit no problem. $500 down and you're driving. He WANTS the people with the worst credit and big financial problems. That is his ideal customer. As long as they can make the down payment they are sent off with a car and a sincere hope they will default.

    This is not a healthy economy. This rich guy is fleecing struggling buyers. Here is an example of the rich holding the poor back, preventing them from gaining success, preventing them from building wealth. He is no better than a slum lord. The only difference is he does it with cars. He's probably got a very expensive home and lots of expensive toys. He can throw money around like nothing. Comes easy to him. He has set up a money production operation based on despair and shattered lives. There should be a law against this.

    Health care is just as bad. Big insurance gets their hands workers' money before they ever see it. It comes out of their paychecks as withholding and even further back up the wealth stream, directly from the employer. We don't need to cut taxes to free up business. What we need to do is cut crippling health care payments from business! When we go to a nationally funded system it will free up business from the burden of making health care payments. That is getting to be a bigger expense than taxes!
    Last edited by PoliTalker; 07-21-2019 at 06:18 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzomin View Post
    Not quite. Gramm tried to get the bill through many times and the Dems voted it down. This time Gramm had the votes. Many of the Dems gave up their votes, since they were going to lose anyway, to wring concession out. They obviously did not get enough. The final numbers do not tell the story, nor the battles. .The vote finalized at something like 3 in the AM. It was the Dems who talked to reporters afterward talking about what a dangerous bill they just passed. You have no understanding of how politics works.
    I have no understanding of how politics works? Ok.

    What I do know is just because something is bi-partisan doesn't mean it does not have detractors. And I know for a bill to become law it must pass Congress and the President must sign it. So unless you are arguing Clinton mailed in his administration with over a year left the President did not sign it on his way out the door.

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    OUr social democracy has survived for more than 100 years and will continue to do so.
    This will be the election map for 2020.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmymccready View Post
    OUr social democracy has survived for more than 100 years and will continue to do so.
    Social Democratic Republic.
    kag: to choke something down in disgust

    Keep America Gagging

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Celticguy,



    The regulations were not strong enough.
    Why is this always the excuse for why socialist gambits fail ? You speak of greed but do you (and this is a rhetorical question) work for a living ? The profit motive pays your salary. Whether you work in the public sector or private it makes no difference. And do you not acceot raises or bonuses ? Thats profit for you in your (and my) bargain trading time/effort/expertise for compensation.
    Your greed makes the world go round and has since we moved past feudal governance.
    The private sector is smarter than the public sector.
    Why ?
    Because its rewarded for doing so and the best and brightest do the best and brightest thing.
    Just because you don't understand it does not make it bad. Celticguy

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    Regulations are for the benefit and protection of the people. Corporations would dump their crap into lakes and rivers if they could. Many still do. Coal was allowed to, after one of Trumps first Pres. Orders. Part of American corporations moving abroad was because China had almost no environmental regulations. China is paying for that now.
    The head of GE is famous for saying he wished he could put all his plants on barges and move then wherever he got the best deal. That is how much corporations care about America and American workers, ZERO. Trump is giving more money and power to corporations. He made a pro corporate anti worker Supreme Court that will never vote for a scrap or workers rights or worker protections.
    Rightys voted for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzomin View Post
    Regulations are for the benefit and protection of the people. Corporations would dump their crap into lakes and rivers if they could. Many still do. Coal was allowed to, after one of Trumps first Pres. Orders. Part of American corporations moving abroad was because China had almost no environmental regulations. China is paying for that now.
    The head of GE is famous for saying he wished he could put all his plants on barges and move then wherever he got the best deal. That is how much corporations care about America and American workers, ZERO. Trump is giving more money and power to corporations. He made a pro corporate anti worker Supreme Court that will never vote for a scrap or workers rights or worker protections.
    Rightys voted for this.
    When regulations prevent new development of housing and thus protect the property values of existing homeowners and increase housing costs for lower income people, how does that benefit the people?

    When government places massive new regulations on businesses (see Dodd Frank as one example) that only big corporations can afford to comply with and hurt small to medium size businesses, how does that benefit the people?

    When government make people get licences to work in certain industries (see hair styling as one example), it protects incumbent workers and hurts those trying to break in, how does that benefit the people?

    We could go on and on but those are just a few examples.

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    You really have to ask, which is worst socialism or plutocracy, for the working class????

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    Hello Celticguy,

    Quote Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
    Why is this always the excuse for why socialist gambits fail ? You speak of greed but do you (and this is a rhetorical question) work for a living ? The profit motive pays your salary. Whether you work in the public sector or private it makes no difference. And do you not acceot raises or bonuses ? Thats profit for you in your (and my) bargain trading time/effort/expertise for compensation.
    Your greed makes the world go round and has since we moved past feudal governance.
    The private sector is smarter than the public sector.
    Why ?
    Because its rewarded for doing so and the best and brightest do the best and brightest thing.
    Your attempt to make the conversation about me indicates that you have no good argument about why dropping Wall Street oversight regulation was anything but a give-away to the greedy and a direct cause of the Great Recession.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Flame on me, mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you go on my PERMANENT Ignore List. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I won't read a word you write, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: if you like my PIP, feel free to use it. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Celticguy,



    Your attempt to make the conversation about me indicates that you have no good argument about why dropping Wall Street oversight regulation was anything but a give-away to the greedy and a direct cause of the Great Recession.
    You will note that i included myself.
    Your premise is that greed is bad. Therefore any manistifacion is similarly bad.

    I refuse that paradigm.

    Franklin Raines chose to buy these loans knoqing full well they were rife with bad ones thereby legitimizing them. Wall Street had nothing to do with it.
    I realize you cannot accept this truth much less Barney Frank declaring the markets were sound two weeks before the takeover of the financial market players but it doesnt change these facts. I worked for Wachovia Securities while this was going down (and yes our CEO made some stupid buys stupid being far too kinda term).
    Government caused this by trying to buy black votes and hoping Gingrich's economy would be good enough to keep it hidden.
    Just because you don't understand it does not make it bad. Celticguy

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