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Thread: US government is running out of money faster than expected, Mnuchin warns

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfm7175 View Post
    I wonder what Flash considers to be a "high top tax rate"... it's apparently at least 25% and up...

    Not that it matters anyway, since as you pointed out, his own data shows that there is no correlation between the two things.
    12 of the 18 recessions occurred with tax rates of 69% or higher. I consider that high.

    I never said there was a correlation between those things--I said it is evidence against any claim that lower tax rates are the cause of recessions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evince View Post
    link to where you got those numbers
    The tax rates came from the IRS. The list of recessions came from a Wickipedia site and supported by other reliable sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    You just falsified your own argument with the data you presented.

    It's obvious that recessions have nothing whatsoever to do with top tax rates.
    What argument did I falsify? My argument was that low taxes (or high taxes) are not the cause of recessions. You apparently recognized this argument earlier because I stated:

    "I certainly don't think higher or lower taxes are responsible for a recession, especially since revenue as a percent of GDP were lower or about the same during high taxes. But it illustrates higher taxes do not solve any problems, either."

    And you replied: "That you have done."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    ^^Idiot thinks we can print our way to prosperity. Further evidence of how terribly our leftists educational establishment is failing our children.
    Dead right. The federal government is in a tight squeeze that will eventually bring it's downfall.

    If it prints the money without a corresponding increase in wealth in the economy, it causes inflation. Printing more money to deal with the higher prices the government must now pay causes hyper-inflation. A cash crash.

    If it borrows the money, it must pay it back with interest. If it borrows money to pay the interest, you get a debt crash.

    If is taxes the money, it can only tax it so much before there is nothing more to tax without causing a massive revolt, throwing the government out of power permanently. You get a tax crash.

    These are the only three ways the federal government can raise revenue. NONE of them end well.

    In a cash crash, the money is deemed worthless by the populace. They will simply use a different money, probably commodity based (a return to gold and silver based money?).
    In a debt crash, the loans are deemed worthless by those that invested in the federal government. A bankruptcy ensues, throwing the federal government out of power. The dollar, backed by that government's promise to pay its debts, is dead. People will then choose a different money, probably commodity based.
    In a tax crash, the government is thrown out of power (likely by violence) or at least hated and despised to the point that confidence in the dollar vanishes. People will simply use a different money, probably commodity based.

    The federal government does not have sufficient gold reserves. If the debts are called in, if the value of the dollar is called in, they cannot pay it. They have no assets except property, which they will have to sell. If people don't accept the dollar anymore, they can essentially get the property for next to free. Now the federal government has no disposable property and they still owe the debt. Then what?

    Already the pyramid scheme of social security is seeing it's final stages before collapse. Already the same thing is happening to Medicare. It's already collapsing in Obamacare.

    We are already witnessing the financial collapse of the federal government. It will bring a lot of chaos and fear, but it will free the States to pass amendments to the Constitution to restructure the federal government into a more sound financial structure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    12 of the 18 recessions occurred with tax rates of 69% or higher. I consider that high.
    Then 6 of the 18 recessions didn't, thus falsifying your theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    I never said there was a correlation between those things--I said it is evidence against any claim that lower tax rates are the cause of recessions.
    Paradox, brought about by an attempt to lie. Which is it, dude?
    You're gonna have to clear your paradox by choosing one of the conflicting arguments and utterly rejecting the other. It's the only way, dude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    The tax rates came from the IRS. The list of recessions came from a Wickipedia site and supported by other reliable sources.
    Wikipedia is not a reliable source. They are biased, incomplete, badly written, or just plain wrong in their articles. I do not accept them as a reference for anything. Apparently you never learned even a basic amount of Hawaiian. There is no 'c' in wiki. The Hawaiian language doesn't even have a 'c' in it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    Dead right. The federal government is in a tight squeeze that will eventually bring it's downfall.

    If it prints the money without a corresponding increase in wealth in the economy, it causes inflation. Printing more money to deal with the higher prices the government must now pay causes hyper-inflation. A cash crash.

    If it borrows the money, it must pay it back with interest. If it borrows money to pay the interest, you get a debt crash.

    If is taxes the money, it can only tax it so much before there is nothing more to tax without causing a massive revolt, throwing the government out of power permanently. You get a tax crash.

    These are the only three ways the federal government can raise revenue. NONE of them end well.

    In a cash crash, the money is deemed worthless by the populace. They will simply use a different money, probably commodity based (a return to gold and silver based money?).
    In a debt crash, the loans are deemed worthless by those that invested in the federal government. A bankruptcy ensues, throwing the federal government out of power. The dollar, backed by that government's promise to pay its debts, is dead. People will then choose a different money, probably commodity based.
    In a tax crash, the government is thrown out of power (likely by violence) or at least hated and despised to the point that confidence in the dollar vanishes. People will simply use a different money, probably commodity based.

    The federal government does not have sufficient gold reserves. If the debts are called in, if the value of the dollar is called in, they cannot pay it. They have no assets except property, which they will have to sell. If people don't accept the dollar anymore, they can essentially get the property for next to free. Now the federal government has no disposable property and they still owe the debt. Then what?

    Already the pyramid scheme of social security is seeing it's final stages before collapse. Already the same thing is happening to Medicare. It's already collapsing in Obamacare.

    We are already witnessing the financial collapse of the federal government. It will bring a lot of chaos and fear, but it will free the States to pass amendments to the Constitution to restructure the federal government into a more sound financial structure.
    I agree with your analysis but not totally on the dire eventuality you predict; unless, of course, the dimwits in the Democratic Party of the Jackass obtain total power. Then all bets are off.

    There is a way to reign in this spending insanity; Mandatory TERM limits and the FAIR consumption tax.
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
    What argument did I falsify? My argument was that low taxes (or high taxes) are not the cause of recessions. You apparently recognized this argument earlier because I stated:

    "I certainly don't think higher or lower taxes are responsible for a recession, especially since revenue as a percent of GDP were lower or about the same during high taxes. But it illustrates higher taxes do not solve any problems, either."

    And you replied: "That you have done."
    You DID argue that they are the cause of recessions. Then you changed your argument. I agreed with your change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I agree with your analysis but not totally on the dire eventuality you predict; unless, of course, the dimwits in the Democratic Party of the Jackass obtain total power. Then all bets are off.
    This isn't a Democrat or Republican issue anymore. It effects either party just the same. The path is committed. The federal government is broke. It's just a matter of time now. How long? 10 years? 20 years? Hard to say, but it WILL happen just as I describe. It must. The only way to avoid it is for the federal government to turn 180 degrees about and cut spending, ruthlessly. That will cause a revolt just as a tax increase would. You see, it's not just the federal government. It's the people in this nation have become dependent on it. They will be most hurt when it comes apart on them. The rest of the economy will continue. It does not need a government to do that. Those that hold a commodity wealth (property, jewelry, gold, silver, diamonds, railroads, etc) will be in the best position to weather this storm. The nation could very survive, but the federal government in its present form will have to change dramatically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    There is a way to reign in this spending insanity; Mandatory TERM limits and the FAIR consumption tax.
    Not a lot of good choice there, either. Cut social security payments dramatically? Can you imagine the hue and cry? Cut Medicare dramatically? I can already hear the cries of 'heartless' roaming the streets and retirement communities over that! Cut the military dramatically? What about existing threats? Cut Senator Boondoggle's Monument to Government Waste and Inefficiency? Sure. But that's a tiny part of the budget. Cut the welfare programs anywhere? Not gonna happen without a revolt.

    Cut or eliminate the EPA? Sure, I wouldn't mind. I consider it unconstitutional anyway. But what about those that want it?
    Cut or eliminate the TSA? Sure, I wouldn't mind. It's sham security to begin with. But what about the public that feels it's needed for security on airlines?
    Cut or eliminate the NEA? Sure, I wouldn't mind. I consider it unconstitutional as well. But what about those that feel the need for federal oversight of our schools?

    A big problem with the federal government being in such dire financial condition today is the demands of the people. You're going to have to convince them, or they will suffer the terrible loss caused by that dependency the hard way.

    I do what I can, and you do too, but do you really think it's possible to convince so many people so they won't suffer such a fate? Me? I put my wealth into commodity form. The value of that commodity will still be there after any of these grand mal crashes I've described. I can easily then convert what I wish to the new currency, whatever form it might take.

    I wonder too, if the federal government has the balls to try a consumption tax. Personally I could go for that IF the income tax was repealed. Frankly, I think it would be a good thing. It exposes just how much the federal taxes are in this country, since people would be paying it directly instead of having the bulk of it hidden away in withholdings. Do you think the public would tolerate for long a 35-40% national sales tax? Here in Washington, where we use sales taxes for funding State government, the total combined sales tax would reach 50-60%!
    Last edited by Into the Night; 07-15-2019 at 02:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    ^^Idiot thinks we can print our way to prosperity. Further evidence of how terribly our leftists educational establishment is failing our children.
    Will YOU support raising the Debt ceiling?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    Then 6 of the 18 recessions didn't, thus falsifying your theory.

    Paradox, brought about by an attempt to lie. Which is it, dude?
    You're gonna have to clear your paradox by choosing one of the conflicting arguments and utterly rejecting the other. It's the only way, dude.
    There is no paradox or lie. I showed that most recessions occurred during high tax rates to refute the idea that low taxes were the cause of recessions.

    I never put forth a theory or suggested a correlation. You obviously make huge leaps of logic. Slow down and read carefully and you will not make such illogical posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Will YOU support raising the Debt ceiling?
    So you prefer a debt crash instead of a cash crash, yes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    Wikipedia is not a reliable source. They are biased, incomplete, badly written, or just plain wrong in their articles. I do not accept them as a reference for anything. Apparently you never learned even a basic amount of Hawaiian. There is no 'c' in wiki. The Hawaiian language doesn't even have a 'c' in it.
    Not when it is supported by all other sources with none disputing it. I'm sure you do not have a list of recessions that differs from that presented. If you do, you are unwilling to post it.

    The only thing you are right about is my lack of knowledge of Hawaiian. It matches your knowledge of constitutional law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    You DID argue that they are the cause of recessions. Then you changed your argument. I agreed with your change.
    I never suggested that we know any cause of recessions--especially tax rates. You are mixing me up with another poster or your memory is failing you again.

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    I would just like to know how Republicans expect to lower the deficit during a recession if they can't even do it during a boom.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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