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Thread: Great Minds of the Eastern Intellectual Tradition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Those are good insights.

    I think we also have to keep in mind that without a certain level of expertise, we are ignoring that confuciansim is not a monolithic philosophy that developed as a response to the warring states period of Chinese history. It has evolved and adopted elements of daosim, buddhism, and has gained adherents beyond China as a philosophy of ethics and rationality. So I have to admit that my lack of expertise is obviously making me stereotype and simplify this philosophical tradition
    yes, and a word of caution not to conflate the various "Confucius Institutes" worldwide with a usable philosophy outside of China..they are also used for Chinese espionage

    Closing Confucius Institutes
    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...t_32950016.htm
    The director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Christopher Wray, told a Senate panel last February that the FBI was concerned about the institutes. The most prominent critics of the CIs in Washington -- U.S. senators Marco Rubio of Florida and Ted Cruz of Texas -- have come from the Republican Party, but Democrats have also raised concerns, as in the case of U.S. representative Seth Moulton of Massachusetts, who has called on Tufts University and the University of Massachusetts Boston to close their CIs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    yes, and a word of caution not to conflate the various "Confucius Institutes" worldwide with a usable philosophy outside of China..they are also used for Chinese espionage

    Closing Confucius Institutes
    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2...t_32950016.htm
    The director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Christopher Wray, told a Senate panel last February that the FBI was concerned about the institutes. The most prominent critics of the CIs in Washington -- U.S. senators Marco Rubio of Florida and Ted Cruz of Texas -- have come from the Republican Party, but Democrats have also raised concerns, as in the case of U.S. representative Seth Moulton of Massachusetts, who has called on Tufts University and the University of Massachusetts Boston to close their CIs.
    I do not know anything about that, but government and political infiltration of religious and spiritual institutions is ubiquitous throughout human history. I am sure there are sects of the American baptist church which are essentially a partisan arm of the Republican Party. The Orthodox Church in America had to divorce itself from the Moscow Patriarch, because the Russian Orthodox Church had become an arm of Kremlin policy.


    On a more philosophical tangent, I am looking forward to learning more about Zoroastrianism. One of the few things I know is that they were the first monothestic religion, and they have the most concise, crystal clear, and elegant statement of moral principles I have ever heard of.
    I mean, this is just a thing of beauty:

    Zoroastrian morality is summed up in the simple phrase, "good thoughts, good words, good deeds"
    (wikipedia)

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    http://www.avesta.org/zfaq.html

    overview

    Zoroastrianism is a religion founded in ancient times by the prophet Zarathushtra, known to the Greeks as Zoroaster.

    Zoroastrianism was the dominant world religion during the Persian empires (559 BC to 651 AC), and was thus the most powerful world religion at the time of Jesus. It had a major influence on other religions. It is still practiced world-wide, especially in Iran and India.

    To quote Mary Boyce,

    "The prophet Zarathushtra, son of Pourushaspa, of the Spitaman family, is known to us primarily from the Gathas, seventeen great hymns which he composed and which have been faithfully preserved by his community. These are not works of instruction, but inspired, passionate utterances, many of them addressed directly to God; and their poetic form is a very ancient one, which has been traced back (through Norse parallels) to Indo-European times. It seems to have been linked with a mantic tradition, that is, to have been cultivated by priestly seers who sought to express in lofty words their personal apprehension of the divine; and it is marked by subtleties of allusion, and great richness and complexity of style. Such poetry can only have been fully understood by the learned; and since Zoroaster believed that he had been entrusted by God with a message for all mankind, he must also have preached again and again in plain words to ordinary people. His teachings were handed down orally in his community from generation to generation, and were at last committed to writing under the Sasanians, rulers of the third Iranian empire. The language then spoken was Middle Persian, also called Pahlavi; and the Pahlavi books provide invaluable keys for interpreting the magnificent obscurities of the Gathas themselves." - Zoroastrians, Their religious beliefs and practices, London, 1979, pg 17.

    Some of the major tenets of Zoroastrianism include:

    God: Ahura Mazda
    The supreme being is called Ahura Mazda (Phl. Ohrmazd), meaning "Wise Lord." Ahura Mazda is all good, and created the world and all good things, including people. He is opposed by Anghra Mainyu (Phl. Ahriman), meaning "Destructive Spirit," the embodiment of evil and creator of all evil things. The cosmic battle between good and evil will ultimately lead to the destruction of all evil.
    Prophet: Zarathushtra
    The religion was founded by Zarathushtra. His date is uncertain, but is probably somewhere around 1200 BC. He lived and preached in the Inner Asian steppes. Zarathushtra received his revelations directly from Ahura Mazda, and from his Archangels (Amesha Spentas).
    Scripture: Avesta
    The central scripture is the Avesta. The most sacred sections of the Avesta are the Gathas or Hymns of Zarathushtra; they are also the most enigmatic. Later sacred literature includes the Pahlavi Texts, which contain extensive quotations and paraphrases from lost Avesta texts.
    Creed
    The creed is summarized in Yasna 12. It is likely to have been composed by Zarathushtra himself, and to have been used as an avowal of faith by early converts (Cf. Boyce, Zoroastrianism, Its Antiquity and Constant Vigour, p. 102-4).
    Observances
    Two sacred garments, the sudreh (shirt) and kusti (cord) are the emblems of the religion. Zoroastrians perform a short cleansing ritual (Padyab), and retie the kusti several times a day with another short ritual (Nirang-i Kusti) as a sign of their faith. Other prayers are recited daily from the Khorda Avesta. Prayer is largely done in the Avestan language. The faithful should also participate in seasonal communal festivals ("Gahambars") during the year.
    Fire and "Asha"
    Fire, as a symbol of "Asha" and the "original light of God," holds a special place of esteem in the religion. Prayer is often done in front of a fire, and consecrated fires are kept perpetually burning in the major temples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post

    On another tangent, I have wanted to learn more about Daoism because it doesn’t seem to have the rigidity and prescriptive social function of Confucianism, and it seems to accept the reality, necessity, and spirituality of the natural world in a way that Buddhism does not. Of course, my ignorance of Eastern philosophy is vast, so I have attempt to avoid being an armchair expert, and remain open to the possibility that I am dead wrong about all that.
    I first looked in to studying Taoism after a series of Tai Chi classes which I now do on my own almost daily.
    Our Master Healer, Tao Shih Pei Wo Lun, would pop in every now and then to share wisdom and knowledge of our journey with the hope of attaining "The Promise". The promise of "heaven on earth, peace, bliss, ecstasy, unconditional love and equanimity."

    We have a fabulous Oriental Healing Arts Center which is the equivalent of my Church.
    I don't know much about Buddhism or Confucianism except that when reading some its philosophies I noticed a distinct similarity.
    The Tao Te Ching, along with the Zhuangzi, is a fundamental text for both philosophical and religious Taoism. It also strongly influenced other schools of Chinese philosophy and religion, including Legalism, Confucianism, and Buddhism, which was largely interpreted through the use of Taoist words and concepts when it was originally introduced to China.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching
    The movements of Qi Gong and choreography of Tai Chi have meaning and applications. The more one does, the more meanings and applications one finds.
    What's amazing is that you can apply the movements to virtually every other sport. E.g., I run, cycle, golf and swim mainly. Therefore each time I run, cycle, golf or swim I am essentially also doing my Tai Chi exercises which means that I'm not only participating in the particular sport but I'm also consciously or unconsciously meditating - staying in the present.
    The journey, path, or Tao never ends but always enhances.
    Last edited by anonymoose; 07-09-2019 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    On another tangent, I have wanted to learn more about Daoism because it doesn’t seem to have the rigidity and prescriptive social function of Confucianism, and it seems to accept the reality, necessity, and spirituality of the natural world in a way that Buddhism does not. Of course, my ignorance of Eastern philosophy is vast, so I have attempt to avoid being an armchair expert, and remain open to the possibility that I am dead wrong about all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by anonymoose View Post
    I first looked in to studying Taoism after a series of Tai Chi classes which I now do on my own almost daily.
    Our Master Healer, Tao Shih Pei Wo Lun, would pop in every now and then to share wisdom and knowledge of our journey with the hope of attaining "The Promise". The promise of "heaven on earth, peace, bliss, ecstasy, unconditional love and equanimity."

    We have a fabulous Oriental Healing Arts Center which is the equivalent of my Church.
    I don't know much about Buddhism or Confucianism except that when reading some its philosophies I noticed a distinct similarity.


    The movements of Qi Gong and choreography of Tai Chi have meaning and applications. The more one does, the more meanings and applications one finds.
    What's amazing is that you can apply the movements to virtually every other sport. E.g., I run, cycle, golf and swim mainly. Therefore each time I run, cycle, golf or swim I am essentially also doing my Tai Chi exercises which means that I'm not only participating in the particular sport but I'm also consciously or unconsciously meditating - staying in the present.
    The journey, path, or Tao never ends but always enhances.
    Much obliged for the contribution.

    My limited understanding is that - at some level - Daoism was a reaction against traditional Confucianism. A reaction against Confucian cultivation of hierarchy, ceremony, ritual, submission, and knowing one's place in a well ordered society. Legalism, especially as practiced by the Qin dynasty, was most certainly in direct conflict with Daoism. Undoubtedly, as the centuries past, Daosim, Confucianism, and Buddhism borrowed from each other, fused ideas, and various permutations of their tenets were adapted as deemed suitable for local custom and local tradition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Much obliged for the contribution.
    Your welcome. I rec'd a PM from anatta about this thread while on vacation in SE Alaska and didn't have the chance to post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    My limited understanding is that - at some level - Daoism was a reaction against traditional Confucianism. A reaction against Confucian cultivation of hierarchy, ceremony, ritual, submission, and knowing one's place in a well ordered society. Legalism, especially as practiced by the Qin dynasty, was most certainly in direct conflict with Daoism.
    I thought I'd take to Buddhism after reading some of its philosophy but the chanting, etc. was meaningless to me. I've been in Buddhist Temples in Anchorage - not much going on. Like I said the Oriental Healing Arts Center in Anchorage is a thriving but peaceful enclave. Much Taoist literature, healing oils, massage and acupuncture school, Kung Fu classes, TuiNa pain relief clinic, acupuncture, and so on and so forth.
    https://www.akinstitute.com/About.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Undoubtedly, as the centuries past, Daosim, Confucianism, and Buddhism borrowed from each other, fused ideas, and various permutations of their tenets were adapted as deemed suitable for local custom and local tradition.
    I've read several interpretations of Tao Te Ching with explanations. No doubt it has changed from it's original meaning but if one follows the overall gist of the meaning you can't go wrong. Wisdom in simplicity.
    An example from a chapter that struck me was how Lao Tzu wrote that a bad leader was better than no leader. If only our politicians could follow something so simple rather than attempt to use brute force to rid a bad leader without replacement. (sorry to interject politics but the Tao Te Ching does actually discuss politics).
    Last edited by anonymoose; 07-09-2019 at 05:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anonymoose View Post
    I first looked in to studying Taoism after a series of Tai Chi classes which I now do on my own almost daily.
    Our Master Healer, Tao Shih Pei Wo Lun, would pop in every now and then to share wisdom and knowledge of our journey with the hope of attaining "The Promise". The promise of "heaven on earth, peace, bliss, ecstasy, unconditional love and equanimity."

    We have a fabulous Oriental Healing Arts Center which is the equivalent of my Church.
    I don't know much about Buddhism or Confucianism except that when reading some its philosophies I noticed a distinct similarity.


    The movements of Qi Gong and choreography of Tai Chi have meaning and applications. The more one does, the more meanings and applications one finds.
    What's amazing is that you can apply the movements to virtually every other sport. E.g., I run, cycle, golf and swim mainly. Therefore each time I run, cycle, golf or swim I am essentially also doing my Tai Chi exercises which means that I'm not only participating in the particular sport but I'm also consciously or unconsciously meditating - staying in the present.
    The journey, path, or Tao never ends but always enhances.
    really glad to hear just how dialed in you are to your practices..
    There's a lot of good stuff going on there. "good karma!" ROFL

    I can't even imagine the physical and holistic benefits.
    I'm just coming to terms in getting myself tuned up for the long race into ( *inshallah* ) old age.
    Losing weight, tightening up has really been helping getting thru the day..

    I see what you are getting from the taoists..are they not primarily concerned with balance ? ( like homeostasis)
    I'm sure i'm not getting the gist here..

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    Quote Originally Posted by anonymoose View Post
    Your welcome. I rec'd a PM from anatta about this thread while on vacation in SE Alaska and didn't have the chance to post.
    I thought I'd take to Buddhism after reading some of its philosophy but the chanting, etc. was meaningless to me. I've been in Buddhist Temples in Anchorage - not much going on. Like I said the Oriental Healing Arts Center in Anchorage is a thriving but peaceful enclave. Much Taoist literature, healing oils, massage and acupuncture school, Kung Fu classes, TuiNa pain relief clinic, acupuncture, and so on and so forth.
    https://www.akinstitute.com/About.htm
    I've read several interpretations of Tao Te Ching with explanations. No doubt it has changed from it's original meaning but if one follows the overall gist of the meaning you can't go wrong. Wisdom in simplicity.
    An example from a chapter that struck me was how Lao Tzu wrote that a bad leader was better than no leader. If only our politicians could follow something so simple rather than attempt to use brute force to rid a bad leader without replacement. (sorry to interject politics but the Tao Te Ching does actually discuss politics).
    It is impossible to separate politics from philosophy. The great philosophical traditions of the axial age, from China, to Greece, to Judah, to India most certainly considered not only questions of virtue and ethics, but also conceptualized what the ideal state would look like, or how one would render a well-ordered society.

    As far as the sacred text and philosophical tomes, this a list of things I need to become more informed about:

    Vedas
    Upanishads
    Bhagavad Gita
    Torah
    Zoroastrian scriptures
    Annalects of Confucious
    Sikh scriptures
    Theravada sutras
    Jain scriptures
    Neo-confucian books
    Daoist scriptures
    Qur'an
    Tibetan vajrayana

    There is a course I am going to take that covers all this, but still I've got my work cut out for me!

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    Daoism was a reaction against traditional Confucianism
    The first major philosopher who lived in China was Lao Tzu . He lived about 600 BC, under the Eastern Zhou dynasty. Lao Tzu founded the philosophy of Taoism. ... Not long after Lao Tzu began teaching Taoist ideas, another philosopher named Confucius came along to disagree with him.

    ou can see that these two ideas conflict with each other. Yet both Taoism and Confucianism were popular all over China for the next two thousand years, and they are still both popular today.

    More than a thousand years later, in the 500s AD, Buddhist monks came to China from India. They brought a new Buddhist philosophy with them. Buddhists thought that people should concentrate on being good people and helping others, so they could stop being reincarnated and become one with God. In China, many Buddhists soon became Zen Buddhists. Zen Buddhists taught that you should not think or read too much, and instead you should become good by doing things and by meditating. Many people in China became Buddhists, including many Chinese emperors. But Chinese people kept on reading and thinking about Taoism and Confucianism, too.
    https://quatr.us/china/chinese-philo...nfucianism.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    The first major philosopher who lived in China was Lao Tzu . He lived about 600 BC, under the Eastern Zhou dynasty. Lao Tzu founded the philosophy of Taoism. ... Not long after Lao Tzu began teaching Taoist ideas, another philosopher named Confucius came along to disagree with him.

    ou can see that these two ideas conflict with each other. Yet both Taoism and Confucianism were popular all over China for the next two thousand years, and they are still both popular today.

    More than a thousand years later, in the 500s AD, Buddhist monks came to China from India. They brought a new Buddhist philosophy with them. Buddhists thought that people should concentrate on being good people and helping others, so they could stop being reincarnated and become one with God. In China, many Buddhists soon became Zen Buddhists. Zen Buddhists taught that you should not think or read too much, and instead you should become good by doing things and by meditating. Many people in China became Buddhists, including many Chinese emperors. But Chinese people kept on reading and thinking about Taoism and Confucianism, too.
    https://quatr.us/china/chinese-philo...nfucianism.htm
    I think one of the more interesting aspects of the human experience is how communities of people fuse and modify philosophical traditions and spiritual heritage to comport with their own local customs. For example, how the Japanese fused their native Shinto traditions with the Buddhism that was imported via China. Or how African tribes fused Christianity with their native spiritual traditions.

    There is also no question that a large and complex nation like China has fused the Daoist, Confucian, and Buddhist traditions in interesting ways appropriate to local conditions - even though at face value, traditional Daoism and Confucianism existed as kind of a ying and yang in opposition to each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    really glad to hear just how dialed in you are to your practices..
    There's a lot of good stuff going on there. "good karma!" ROFL

    I can't even imagine the physical and holistic benefits.
    I'm just coming to terms in getting myself tuned up for the long race into ( *inshallah* ) old age.
    Losing weight, tightening up has really been helping getting thru the day..

    I see what you are getting from the taoists..are they not primarily concerned with balance ? ( like homeostasis)
    My personal practice has evolved but yes, Taoism is a balance of Body, Mind and Spirit. For me it includes meditation, massage, physical activity , constant learning (Kaizan in Japanese) and diet. Yes, I enjoy a few beers now and then but the key is always balance. I'm constantly aware of my physical dantian when physically active. That is the source from which the body's energy flows.
    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    I'm sure i'm not getting the gist here..
    For me the gist is in Tao, the journey. Balance allows flow (yin and yang), there is no set of practices to maintain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I think one of the more interesting aspects of the human experience is how communities of people fuse and modify philosophical traditions and spiritual heritage to comport with their own local customs. For example, how the Japanese fused their native Shinto traditions with the Buddhism that was imported via China. Or how African tribes fused Christianity with their native spiritual traditions.

    There is also no question that a large and complex nation like China has fused the Daoist, Confucian, and Buddhist traditions in interesting ways appropriate to local conditions - even though at face value, traditional Daoism and Confucianism existed as kind of a ying and yang in opposition to each other.
    very true.. "all religion is local?" lol
    But as you mentioned even about Buddhism alone there are many different practices, or Islam and their many different sects

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    Balance allows flow (yin and yang),
    like this concept -balance frees the chi channels

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    These two video courses are going to fill in a prominent void in knowledge for me:
    – the Eastern intellectual tradition, and the history and roles of prominent women of antiquity through the Middle Ages. In my experience, this type of knowledge is not even remotely an expectation of a traditional undergraduate college education, and one has to put effort into seeking it out on your own to acquire any passing familiarity with the subject matter. I consider these courses to be a cure to my ignorance!
    I never had any of this stuff in college, and it is pretty bloody interesting to learn about.

    Warriors, Queens, and Intellectuals: 36 Great Women before 1400
    Professor Joyce E. Salisbury, Ph.D. University of Wisconsin, Green Bay

    The Trung Sisters of Vietnam Fight the Han
    Under the Han Dynasty, its imperial expansion threatened the traditional—and strongly matriarchal—culture of Vietnam. Two of the most famous Vietnamese rebels of this era were the Trung sisters, who led tribal armies against the powerful invaders. See how their story has become a touchstone of Vietnamese culture and pride into the 21st century.

    Boudicca Attacks the Romans
    Witness the end of Iron Age Britain and the birth of “Roman Briton” with the valiant but thwarted rebellion led by the Celtic warrior queen, Boudicca. Like many rebels before her, she was motivated by personal tragedy as much as she was driven by the bigger picture of freedom for her people. Her legacy would be revived in the rule of another British queen, Victoria.

    Hypatia Dies for Intellectual Freedom
    Look at the brilliant and controversial scholar, Hypatia, as she lived, taught, and died in Alexandria in the middle of the 5th century. Her role as a public intellectual and philosopher would make her a rare example of respected female scholarship in a male-dominated world—and would ultimately lead to her murder at the hands of an angry Christian mob.

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    Originating during the late Zhou Dynasty, the philosophy of Mohism emphasizes continuous and honest self-reflection and personal authenticity as being the key to moral cultivation.

    I maintain this is a philosophy Trumpf supporters and their morbidly obese president could benefit from.

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