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Thread: Has ‘real’ Socialism never been tried?

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    Default Has ‘real’ Socialism never been tried?

    If I had a pound for every time some dumb twat said that real Socialism has never been tried, I'd be much richer. This article nails that bollox very effectively.


    Socialism is popular in Britain. More popular than capitalism, at any rate. That was the result of a YouGov survey last year, in which 36% of respondents expressed a favourable view of socialism, while only 32% expressed an unfavourable one. Capitalism, meanwhile, is viewed unfavourably by 39% of respondents, while only 33% view it favourably.

    Yes, I know: It all depends on how you frame the question. But “Do you have a favourable or unfavourable opinion of socialism and capitalism?” does not strike me as a manipulative way of framing it. Besides, if more than a third of the population expressed a favourable view of, say, the flu virus, we would question their sense of judgement, regardless of how exactly the question is worded.

    So what explains the enduring appeal of socialism? Part of the story is that socialism’s proponents have always been very effective at distancing themselves from real-world examples whenever they have ended in tears (as they invariably do). ‘North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela? The Soviet Union, Mao’s China, the Khmer Rouge? Nothing to do with me, mate: That wasn’t real socialism. Real socialism has never been tried.’

    This would not work the other way round. When confronted with (actual or imaginary) downsides of the market economy, its supporters would never get away with a response like ‘That wasn’t real capitalism. Real capitalism has never been tried’.

    But what, then, is the difference between real and ‘unreal’ socialism? What is it about, say, North Korea’s socialism that puts it into the ‘unreal’ category, and what would the North Korean government have to do in order to earn that elusive Real Socialism blue tick verification mark (which, remember, has never been awarded)?

    When pushed, socialists usually struggle to give an answer. This is because most of the time, the not-real-socialism meme is a post-hoc rationalisation. Every socialist experiment has, at some point, been waxed lyrical about by Western intellectuals, including Stalin’s Soviet Union and Mao’s China. It was only when their horrors could no longer be denied even with the best will in the world that the blue tick was withdrawn retroactively.

    And yet, there are exceptions to this, such as the Socialist Party of Great Britain (SPGB). They are not, and as far as I know, never were, apologists of Soviet-style socialism, which they describe as ‘state capitalism’. They are among the few socialists who have at least some idea of what they mean by ‘real’ socialism. They use that term to describe a hypothetical system in which working-class people own and control the economy’s productive resources directly, not via the state; a system in which public ownership is not mediated through a government bureaucracy.

    I have no idea how this should work in practice, but I suppose we could imagine some combination of public ownership with Swiss-style multi-level direct democracy. Even then, though, at least one massive problem remains:

    You can define an economic system by its institutional characteristics (e.g. public ownership), and perhaps by its aspiration (e.g. widespread prosperity, giving ordinary workers control over economic decisions). But you cannot sensibly define a system by the extent to which it is successful in meeting those aspirations. Whether a system actually achieves what its proponents want it to achieve is a question which must be testable and falsifiable. Otherwise, I could define a capitalist economy as ‘an economy based on individual property rights and voluntary exchange, in which everybody is fabulously rich’. Whenever an actual economy that is based on individual property rights and voluntary exchange then fails to make everybody fabulously rich, I could proclaim that that economy is not ‘really’ capitalist. Real capitalism has never been tried. And No True Scotsman would do such a thing.

    ‘Empowering the workers’ is an aspiration, not an institutional design feature of a system. More, it is an extraordinarily lofty aspiration, and so far, nobody has worked out how to do it. Politicians of all parties constantly talk about ‘empowering ordinary people’. Every NHS reform is supposed to be somehow about ‘empowering patients’, every educational reform about ‘empowering parents’, every electoral reform about ‘empowering voters’. We are surrounded by people who promise to ‘empower’ us in one way or another, and yet somehow, most of us don’t feel all that ‘empowered’. The EU referendum was supposed to be ‘empowering’, and look at where that got us. Plenty of Remainers now feel that an illegitimate result (‘won on the basis of lies; unscrupulous populists duping low-information voters’) is being forced upon them. Plenty of Leavers now feel that sneering elites are secretly plotting to overturn their decision (‘ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE!’). The ‘true’ socialists’ claim that their system is one which ‘empowers the workers’ is not that special. Everybody claims that. And nobody is particularly good at it.

    But never mind. What would a combination of socialism with direct democracy look like? Let’s put it that way: the homeland of direct democracy, Switzerland, is already experiencing something of a referendum inflation, even with the current, relatively limited scope of the sphere of collective decision-making. Last year, a resident of the Canton of Zurich could have voted in 13 referenda at the federal level, 8 at the cantonal level, and God knows how many at the municipal level. It works, though. Voter turnout at Swiss referenda rarely falls below 40%.

    Now let’s imagine that Switzerland turned socialist, and expanded its model of direct democracy to the newly socialised sectors. This would mean referenda on the production of razors, carpets, gloves, ink cartridges, curtains, hair straighteners, kettles, toasters, microwaves, baking trays, washing-up liquid, tiles, hand blenders, pizzas, and many, many other things. You would need literally thousands of referenda to organise an economy in this way.

    And that is the real reason why ‘real socialism’ has never been tried: even if it could be done logistically (which I doubt), it would be an absolute pain in the neck. Voter turnout would soon drop to rock-bottom levels. The economic planning process would become dominated by vocal single-issue groups, not ‘ordinary workers’. Eventually, all the heavy lifting would have to be delegated to expert committees. At that point, ‘real’ socialism would become ‘unreal’ again.

    But such efficiency arguments aside, ‘real socialism’ would also be a recipe for permanent social conflict and resentment. Are you a ‘Remoaner’, still bitter about not getting your way in the EU referendum? Wait until beer production is socialised, and you find yourself on the losing side of a referendum about discontinuing the brewing of your favourite beer brand.

    Reading recommendations:

    ‘20 Years After: The Fall and Rise of Socialism in East Germany’, Economic Affairs

    ‘An alternative history: what ‘democratic socialism’ would have looked like’

    ‘Cuba after Castro: Democratisation as the next stage of the revolution? Not happening, Comrade Jones’

    Dr Kristian Niemietz is the IEA's Head of Political Economy. He is also a Fellow of the Age Endeavour Fellowship. Kristian studied Economics at the Humboldt Universität zu Berlin and the Universidad de Salamanca, graduating in 2007 as Diplom-Volkswirt (≈MSc in Economics). During his studies, he interned at the Central Bank of Bolivia (2004), the National Statistics Office of Paraguay (2005), and at the IEA (2006). In 2013, he completed a PhD in Political Economy at King’s College London. Kristian previously worked as a Research Fellow at the Berlin-based Institute for Free Enterprise (IUF), and at King's College London, where he taught Economics throughout his postgraduate studies. He is a regular contributor to various journals in the UK, Germany and Switzerland.
    https://iea.org.uk/has-real-socialism-never-been-tried/

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    Are you ready to scrap the National Health System? Get some good old fashioned 'competition' in there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Are you ready to scrap the National Health System? Get some good old fashioned 'competition' in there?
    Another one that has considerable difficulty understanding the difference between social democracy and unfettered socialism.

    https:///sites/timworstall/2016/05/1.../#57904197272d
    Last edited by cancel2 2022; 06-23-2019 at 11:23 PM.

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    They use that term to describe a hypothetical system in which working-class people own and control the economy’s productive resources directly, not via the state; a system in which public ownership is not mediated through a government bureaucracy.
    it would be impossible to keep the state out of this economy. A noble but flawed attempt at economic equality.

    People don't want equality of stuff . they want to get rich or at least better off. they want to get ahead.
    That pressure leads to government corruption, and the breakdown of this hypothetical orchestrated balance

    It ain't natural.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havana Moon View Post
    Another one that has considerable difficulty understanding the difference between social democracy and unfettered socialism.
    Dude. Can you ever answer one fucking question?

    The British Health Care System is 'Socialized'. Do --->YOU<--- want to abandon it???

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    apparatchiks spring up from regulation of the workers economy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Dude. Can you ever answer one fucking question?

    The British Health Care System is 'Socialized'. Do --->YOU<--- want to abandon it???
    It has been answered, read the article ffs!!

    https:///sites/timworstall/2016/05/1.../#57904197272d

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    There are no socialist countries, No capitalistic. Every industrial country is a mix. We are arguing about what the proper mix should be. Providing universal healthcare is done by all industrial countries, except one. It is the right thing to do. It saves is about 50 percent of the cost and is a far more humane way to treat citizens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havana Moon View Post
    It has been answered, read the article ffs!!

    https:///sites/timworstall/2016/05/1.../#57904197272d
    Why are YOU incapable of blurting out what you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzomin View Post
    There are no socialist countries, No capitalistic. Every industrial country is a mix. We are arguing about what the proper mix should be. Providing universal healthcare is done by all industrial countries, except one. It is the right thing to do. It saves is about 50 percent of the cost and is a far more humane way to treat citizens.
    before you jump in with rhetoric, tune into the thread topic = real socialism in theoretical practice

    Socialist Party of Great Britain (SPGB).
    They are among the few socialists who have at least some idea of what they mean by ‘real’ socialism.
    They use that term to describe a hypothetical system in which working-class people own and control the economy’s productive resources directly, not via the state; a system in which public ownership is not mediated through a government bureaucracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzomin View Post
    There are no socialist countries, No capitalistic. Every industrial country is a mix. We are arguing about what the proper mix should be. Providing universal healthcare is done by all industrial countries, except one. It is the right thing to do. It saves is about 50 percent of the cost and is a far more humane way to treat citizens.
    For once I mostly agree with you, certainly universal healthcare should be a basic of any civilised society. I am in Thailand right now and they have UHC which cover the entire populace. I doubt that anyone would consider Thailand to be socialist. Now contrast that with Vietnam which does claim to socialist and healthcare provision is patchy and expensive for many!! I know as my daughter-in-law is from Saigon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havana Moon View Post
    For once I mostly agree with you, certainly universal healthcare should be a basic of any civilised society. I am in Thailand right now and they have UHC which cover the entire populace. I doubt that anyone would consider Thailand to be socialist. Now contrast that with Vietnam which does claim to socialist and healthcare provision is patchy and expensive for many!! I know as my daughter-in-law is from Saigon.
    See. How hard was that?

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    It would cost 3.2 trillion a year more in US spending and the US would then regulate Health Care.

    The last thing we need is more bureaucracy controlling the economy, Yes I get the argument about saving money.

    we are a huge populace and it's better for us to regulate the industry for benefit of users -rather then try to run it.
    We need things like universal coding Single Pay uses, but we don't want to eliminate private insurance.
    We need cost controls more then anything

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    See. How hard was that?
    What's hard is you equating UHC with Socialism, stop being so woolly minded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    It would cost 3.2 trillion a year more in US spending and the US would then regulate Health Care.

    The last thing we need is more bureaucracy controlling the economy, Yes I get the argument about saving money.

    we are a huge populace and it's better for us to regulate the industry for benefit of users -rather then try to run it.
    We need things like universal coding Single Pay uses, but we don't want to eliminate private insurance.
    We need cost controls more then anything
    There are many different healthcare systems in Europe, Germany's may well suit best for the USA.

    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...oryId=91971406

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