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Thread: Dukkha is more than suffering.

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    [1. Buddhism was a reformation movement away from the exclusivity of Brahminical Hinduism of Buddha's time]
    [2. aka Samsara]
    [3. cessation of samsara]
    [4. the demigods per the Vedas and/or otherwise other deities]
    yes I do recall some of that.
    The Vedas were corrupted by the Bhraman class demanding payment or strict interpretation..something..
    as a spiritual master I'm sure you know the details other then my feeble recollections.

    But Buddhism was a reform of that exclusivity of the Bhraman class to holy texts.
    .one no longer needed to be concerned with caste by Buddhists
    I'm pretty sure release from maya is the goal? the cessation of samsara which I think is called going back to Godhead?

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    I take all of my Buddhist cues from Damo. If he says life is all about suffering, then, I will believe it.

    About ten years ago, I attended an event at a Dominican cathedral (Blessed Sacrament) in Seattle. One of the priests played the role of Siddhartha and the other a Dominican, and they had quite an insightful dialogue, while attempting to remain faithful to their assigned roles.
    DRINK MOR KOFFEE


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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Please explain how you see "morality/moral sphere." I see it as intrinsically linked to behavior, rather than a philosophy of mind. IOW, to me "morality" is how I think of and treat other living beings. As for the impermanence of things, to consider this is uplifting and freeing, to me. I'll only be here for but a brief blip of time; better make something of that time. I'm a grain of star dust in the universe; there are untold exponents of 10 billions more sharing this realm. This is freeing. Everything dies. New life arises. So I think it's good to love hard, love long, don't be afraid to express how you feel to a friend or loved one. Honor and cherish your own life and all life that connects you with this planet. Fight hard against that which dishonors and hates life. I don't know what "philosophy" this fits under, it just is how I see and it and live it. Seems maybe that it's similar to what you are saying?
    yes that's the philosophy of the morals ( Eightfold Path) being linked to behavior.
    The Path is a list of required behaviors/thinking ,to keep you on the Right Path

    Working the Path means you are Bodhi (a practioner of Buddhism) -then there are the monks and sages
    that dedicate their life occupation to the practice as well- deeper on their Path.

    The big difference though from a "blip in time" is Saṃsāra (rebirth of imperfected karma).
    That is an endless rebirth ( again not as a self but reconstructed imperfect karma) into dukkha for humanity,
    or other Wheel of Life incarnations.

    This endless century after century after eon rebirth is an unsatisfactory cycle. because of dukkha.
    Getting off the Wheel is the final goal- Buddhists call that cessation process Enlightenment

    So being around in human form is not common in every rebirth - there many more life forms that are not human.
    Since only humans can work toward Enlightenment there is an understanding that this life is important; i.e.
    A critical window of opportunity off the Wheel.
    Last edited by dukkha; 04-28-2019 at 11:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard the Duck View Post
    I take all of my Buddhist cues from Damo. If he says life is all about suffering, then, I will believe it.

    About ten years ago, I attended an event at a Dominican cathedral (Blessed Sacrament) in Seattle. One of the priests played the role of Siddhartha and the other a Dominican, and they had quite an insightful dialogue, while attempting to remain faithful to their assigned roles.
    i enjoy that comparative religion stuff as well.
    Yes this life is all about suffering and amealiorating same; but recall dukkha is more then only suffering
    as the Buddha taught
    the Buddha taught:

    Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of dukkha: birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, illness is dukkha, death is dukkha; union with what is displeasing is dukkha; separation from what is pleasing is dukkha; not to get what one wants is dukkha;
    in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are dukkha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    Buddha is not a god. Buddha was a wise sage -a teacher a man. The enlightenment is what we all can do
    it is the end of Saṃsāra (rebirth of imperfected karma) ..

    Hinduism thinks you are reincarnated as a same self. Buddhism has no self -just left over karma that amalgamates back into a different new life - most times not human
    Anything you honor and seek help or aid from other than God can become an idol. Or as the Holy Scriptures declare, "You shall not make for yourself a carved image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them for I the Lord your God, am a jealous God...……." (Ex. 20:4-5)

    The doctrine of reincarnation can become idolatry if one worships its precepts with expectations of anything other than a final judgment after life. Jesus teachings declare, there is only one go around in this reality called life, "Just as it is appointed for people to die once, and after this....the judgment ….so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are awaiting Him." -- Heb. 9:27-28

    This message is clear within the writings of the New Testament Covenant...there is but one lifetime after which everyone will be judged. No endless cycle of life after life, of rebirth into any other lifeform. Christ teaches there is no need for endless reincarnations....He has already paid the ultimate price, He has already lived the perfect life and been offered as the perfect sacrifice to replace the imperfections (sins) of all mankind in the eyes of God....Christ is our advocate that stands between imperfection and God.....making it possible for heavenly ascension for anyone that accepts the conditions of the covenant. The chief conditions? Thy shall love thy God will all thy heart and have no other Gods before Him...the 2nd that combines all the teachings into a simple message....love thy neighbor as thyself.

    The ultimate symbolism of Love? Truth...teaching simple truth. Truth is what sets one free...not endless physical life.

    A simple question? If the teachings of Budda are agnostic in relation to accepting God as the ultimate creator and life giver.....just who gets to decide what happens to your soul along this path of constant reincarnations....who or what determines what is good, what is evil or what defines good karma and or bad karma, good acts of living or bad actions of living? Who gets to decide if you move "up" or "down" along the scales of this life everlasting? Logically this concept of teachings can only be considered true if someone other than Self is in charge of directing and choreographing this dance...no?

    Who is in charge...who do you worship for this sage advise...if not a graven image? If you can't admit there is some form of energy that has this ultimate control...is there really any logic to this type of self denial and punishment if you don't have a guideline to advise? What I find interesting and contradicting at the same time about the teachings of a Buddhist is the fact the Buddhist teaches that he must pay for the evils he has preformed in this current life but rejects the ideology that such a payment even exists in the form of a final judgement.

    Paul....an Apostle of the teachings of the Christ puts it more succinctly, "We are confident, yes well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing unto Him. For we must appear before the judgement seat of Christ; and each one receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are well known to God; and I trust also well known in your consciences." -- 2 Cor. 5:8-11

    This teaching teaches us that God is not eager to punish the wicked as defined by Him (God)...but the teachings reveal that God cannot lie and Justice must be served in equality. "Do I (God) have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says the Lord God...and....not that he (the sinner that has strayed into evilness) should repent (turn from his ways) and live?" -- Ez. 18:23


    If its not God that decides what is Justice....who does? Logically....there must exist a final authority other than self....or what's the point? Each man is an island unto himself?

    There is no morality in nature....right is what the strong makes the weak endure. Is it murder when a big cat chases down and kills the weaker animal in order to sustain its own life? Of course not....its NATURE. There is no moral compass in nature, morality can only be accredited to have come from a higher authority than man or nature, morality only exists in mankind the only lifeform on earth that has the power of recognizing his/her own morality and thus plans for the path along this short life...that determines what is good and what is evil....but first there must be a code of ethics to adhere...where did this universal code come from? Why is morality instructed throughout every human culture on earth with certain constants always existing, such as Murder is wrong, honor your parents...etc., ?
    Last edited by Ralph; 04-29-2019 at 12:54 AM.

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    If its not God that decides what is Justice....who does? Logically....there must exist a final authority other than self..
    [the Law of Karma
    https://www.google.com/search?client...karma+buddhism
    The six realms of rebirth include Deva (heavenly), Asura (demigod), Manusya (human), Tiryak (animals), Preta (ghosts), and Naraka (resident of hell).
    rebirth, state Buddhism traditions, is determined by karma, with good realms favored by Kushala (good karma), while a rebirth in evil realms is a consequence of Akushala (bad karma).
    While Nirvana is the ultimate goal of Buddhist teaching, much of traditional Buddhist practice has been
    centered on gaining merit and merit transfer, whereby one gains rebirth in the good realms and avoids rebirth in the evil realms.

    and

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/paticca-samuppada
    the chain, or law, of dependent arising (paṭicca-samuppāda), or the chain of causation—a fundamental concept of Buddhism describing the causes of suffering (dukkha) and the course of events that lead a being through rebirth, old age, and death.
    karma refers to the idea that intentional actions have consequences for the agent, in this life and in future lives; in fact, it is karma that leads to rebirth. Buddhists understand the law of karma as another manifestation of dependent arising (paṭicca-samuppāda), the law of cause and effect, whereby everything that exists arises due to specific conditions. In this sense, the law of karma is a sort of natural law, so that actions are naturally followed by consequences, not as the result of divine judgement. But they will follow: the Buddha emphasised that actions lead inevitably to appropriate consequences:

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    [the Law of Karma
    https://www.google.com/search?client...karma+buddhism
    The six realms of rebirth include Deva (heavenly), Asura (demigod), Manusya (human), Tiryak (animals), Preta (ghosts), and Naraka (resident of hell).
    rebirth, state Buddhism traditions, is determined by karma, with good realms favored by Kushala (good karma), while a rebirth in evil realms is a consequence of Akushala (bad karma).
    While Nirvana is the ultimate goal of Buddhist teaching, much of traditional Buddhist practice has been
    centered on gaining merit and merit transfer, whereby one gains rebirth in the good realms and avoids rebirth in the evil realms.

    and

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/paticca-samuppada
    the chain, or law, of dependent arising (paṭicca-samuppāda), or the chain of causation—a fundamental concept of Buddhism describing the causes of suffering (dukkha) and the course of events that lead a being through rebirth, old age, and death.
    karma refers to the idea that intentional actions have consequences for the agent, in this life and in future lives; in fact, it is karma that leads to rebirth. Buddhists understand the law of karma as another manifestation of dependent arising (paṭicca-samuppāda), the law of cause and effect, whereby everything that exists arises due to specific conditions. In this sense, the law of karma is a sort of natural law, so that actions are naturally followed by consequences, not as the result of divine judgement. But they will follow: the Buddha emphasised that actions lead inevitably to appropriate consequences:
    That's about as clear as mud. Still no one can explain who gets to define what is good and is evil.....the judge of man the moral lawgiver, man himself if not God? If so what is the point in worshiping, serving SELF?

    Personally I don't think much of a religion where its basic precepts can't be explained by a person who professes to observe its tenants but attempts to cut and paste a cookie cutter form letter mission statement like some giant corporate conglomerate. If you don't comprehend your own faith to the point that you can articulate its basic precepts when asked.....how you going to spread the good word? I have encountered Watch Tower cultists that generate more interest than some generalist form mission statement parroted from the web. In fact when they come to my house, I invite them in....and in short order they are the one's looking at their watch arms and saying, I'd like to talk more by we have go. All you have to do is go into a detailed discussion about the actual content found in the Holy Scriptures...kind'a makes them uncomfortable for some reason.
    Last edited by Ralph; 04-29-2019 at 04:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    That's about as clear as mud.
    feel free to delete your post , and put it on a Christian thread.
    I'm not going to debate you or comment on Scripture on a Buddhist thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    feel free to delete your post , and put it on a Christian thread.
    I'm not going to debate you or comment on Scripture on a Buddhist thread.
    Really? Unlike Christian doctrine.....you have no tenet about revealing why the content of your heart directs you to Buddhism? When a Christian is asked about his/her faith there should be a response as to why your faith is valid why hope remains in your heart. Makes one wonder about socks and pretention...no? You are either a student of the faith that rests in your heart or its all eyewash...an in vogue attempt to seek accolade. A faith not worth defending is not worth serving.

    "But sanctify the Lord in your hearts; be ready always to give an answer to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." -- 1 Peter 3:15

    To me its about evidences of faith.....Christian faith is not blind, we are instructed to PROVE ALL THINGS, TO TEST ALL THINGS (1 Thess. 5:21-22) If something does not present itself as logical or reasoned truth....then its probably not truth. I can find no Prima Facie truth in Buddhism....there is no evidences of reincarnation possible, its a blind tenet of faith.

    But....to each his own, I can only defend MY FAITH.
    Last edited by Ralph; 04-29-2019 at 06:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    Really? Unlike Christian doctrine.....you have no tenet about revealing why the content of your heart directs you to Buddhism? When a Christian is asked about his/her faith there should be a response as to why your faith is valid why hope remains in your heart. Makes one wonder about socks and pretention...no? You are either a student of the faith that rests in your heart or its all eyewash...an in vogue attempt to seek accolade. A faith not worth defending is not worth serving.

    "But sanctify the Lord in your hearts; be ready always to give an answer to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." -- 1 Peter 3:15

    To me its about evidences of faith.....Christian faith is not blind, we are instructed to PROVE ALL THINGS, TO TEST ALL THINGS (1 Thess. 5:21-22) If something does not present itself as logical or reasoned truth....then its probably not truth. I can find no Prima Facie truth in Buddhism....there is no evidences of reincarnation possible, its a blind tenet of faith.

    But....to each his own, I can only defend MY FAITH.
    Ralph: "PROVE ALL THINGS, TO TEST ALL THINGS"
    Jack: Since we know NOTHING about what occurs AFTER death, it's all SPECULATiION and CONJECTURE.

    Just because I believe I turn into a Rabbit after Death, doesn't make it true. We have NO idea if there is a Level 2, a Level 3, a Level 4, ... of if there IS a NEXT Level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    Really? Unlike Christian doctrine.....you have no tenet about revealing why the content of your heart directs you to Buddhism? When a Christian is asked about his/her faith there should be a response as to why your faith is valid why hope remains in your heart. Makes one wonder about socks and pretention...no? You are either a student of the faith that rests in your heart or its all eyewash...an in vogue attempt to seek accolade. A faith not worth defending is not worth serving.

    "But sanctify the Lord in your hearts; be ready always to give an answer to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." -- 1 Peter 3:15

    To me its about evidences of faith.....Christian faith is not blind, we are instructed to PROVE ALL THINGS, TO TEST ALL THINGS (1 Thess. 5:21-22) If something does not present itself as logical or reasoned truth....then its probably not truth. I can find no Prima Facie truth in Buddhism....there is no evidences of reincarnation possible, its a blind tenet of faith.

    But....to each his own, I can only defend MY FAITH.
    The faith requited by Christian tosses the very concept of proof out the window and it utterly and completely divorced from the concepts of reason and logic.

    Why do you pretend to be a Christian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CharacterAssassin View Post
    The faith requited by Christian tosses the very concept of proof out the window and it utterly and completely divorced from the concepts of reason and logic.

    Why do you pretend to be a Christian?
    I think Ralph has pretty much admitted to being a Cult Follower.

    Character: "The faith requited by Christian tosses the very concept of proof out the window and it utterly and completely divorced from the concepts of reason and logic."
    Jack: "EXACTLY".

    And this is the same guy that just blurted out "Christian faith is not blind, we are instructed to PROVE ALL THINGS, TO TEST ALL THINGS". (and probably said it with a straight face, looking as serious as he could)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bhaktajan View Post
    So it is funny when folks say "At death everything disappears and I exist no more" ---where is there a place where things disappear?
    Is there a Guru who says there is such a place?

    <just saying>
    I don't think I've heard that "everything disappears" bit. Are you talking about the soul/spirit, rather than material, physical matter? Thanks for the info regarding nirvana and the history of Buddhism.

    As for the afterlife, who knows? Different religions teach different outcomes. I have a friend who experienced a near-death event during the birth of her first child. It was the classic NDE. She saw her body on the delivery table, being zapped with the defibrillator. Then she went down the hall of the hospital and saw other women in other rooms, and then the journey to the light through a tunnel. A being of light, who she took to be an angel of some sort, stopped her and told her that it wasn't her time yet. She asked some questions, including what is the meaning of life. All knowledge of everything was instantly transferred into her mind, then she was traveling backwards back into her body. She said the only thing she could ever recall about it was that life is "everything over and over again." She interprets that to mean that reincarnation is real. Two things happened because of her experience. 1) She no longer fears death, and 2) she is no longer a devout and practicing Baptist.

    As for me, I don't know one way or the other after the nature of an afterlife, or if there is one. I also don't understand the anger and fear that various believers have towards others' beliefs regarding that. I kind of figure that whatever happens after death (If anything other than lights out) happens to us all regardless of what we believe, or don't believe. What do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    Ralph: "PROVE ALL THINGS, TO TEST ALL THINGS"
    Jack: Since we know NOTHING about what occurs AFTER death, it's all SPECULATiION and CONJECTURE.

    Just because I believe I turn into a Rabbit after Death, doesn't make it true. We have NO idea if there is a Level 2, a Level 3, a Level 4, ... of if there IS a NEXT Level.
    Phish much? What we do know is that after 5000 years of recorded history within the pages of the Holy Scriptures.....not one tenet has been proven to be false through History Actual or Application of Science. Not so with all the false religions around the world. You have no idea about the truth of those other world religions? I could not have presented a better case. As you self professed....simply because you believe something void of evidence....does not make it true.

    The Holy Scriptures are about LIFE and living it in a certain advised method. If you follow that advise...what have you lost? You have lived a life that is morally correct.....after life is the HOPE that rests in your heart. That hope that Buddha refused to explain. I wonder why? Because he has no possible evidential trail to demonstrate the reality of reincarnation....with no standard of morality expect as self defined. I am still awaiting the evidence of just WHO or what gets to decide what is good or evil.....without law, there can be no sin, just like nature. What is being propagated is IDOLOTY...nothing less. You can believe in the flying spaghetti rabbit.....if you will as for Me and My Household....we shall serve the Lord and the laws thereof.
    Last edited by Ralph; 04-29-2019 at 07:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph View Post
    Phish much? What we do know is that after 5000 years of recorded history within the pages of the Holy Scriptures.....not one tenet has been proven to be false through History Actual or Application of Science.
    Is the Earth still the Center of the Universe.
    Do you worship 'graven images'? (Like Christ on a Cross)
    Do you take Sunday off? (One of the Big Ten)
    Still believe that a Dead Person (Jesus) has the ability to become alive after 3 days and walk among us?
    Then, ... floats off into outer space and lands ...?

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