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Thread: Dukkha is more than suffering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Siddhartha Gautama in some of his previous lives was reincarnated as animals and lower life forms. That is really not that different than the Brahmanistic version of Samsara. My point is that Samsara sounds just as fantastical and illogical as Christian and Islamic views of salvation and liberation in a kingdom of God.

    I personally believe all religious traditions are just different faces of an ultimate reality. We are just recently evolved smart chimpanzees, and our ranges of spiritual soteriology collectively just encompass our attempts to put a face on an ultimate reality. Therefore, while I personally feel the greatest affinity for the Christian tradition, I endeavor to adopt a posture that Christianity, and Christianity uniquely, is neither more correct nor more superior to other religious traditions
    remeber anatta = "no self" if there is no self there cannot be a reincarnation of self
    In fact the very idea of a permanent self while alive is nothing more then ego construct.

    But it does get complicated - I consider myself (lol that word) a Tibetian Buddhist
    after we die we go into realms and various states to reintegrate (samsara)

    The Tibetan Book of the Dead
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol
    ~~

    most Buddhist go with the "wager argument - bypassing the philosophical constructs.
    This is typically how Buddha reasoned out argument in his suttas as well

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)
    The Buddha's main pragmatic argument is that if one accepted his teachings, one would be likely to pay careful attention to one's actions, so as to do no harm. This in and of itself is a worthy activity regardless of whether the rest of the path was true. When applying this argument to the issue of rebirth and karmic results, the Buddha sometimes coupled it with a second pragmatic argument that resembles Pascal's wager: If one practices the Dhamma, one leads a blameless life in the here-and-now. Even if the afterlife and karmic results do not exist, one has not lost the wager, for the blamelessness of one's life is a reward in and of itself. If there is an afterlife with karmic results, then one has won a double reward: the blamelessness of one's life here and now, and the good rewards of one's actions in the afterlife. These two pragmatic arguments form the central message of this sutta.[71]
    In the 1940s, J.G. Jennings interpreted the teaching of rebirth in a less than literal sense. Believing that the doctrine of anatta (not-self) is incompatible with the view that the actions of one individual can have repercussions for the same individual in a future life, Jennings argued that the doctrine of actual transmigration was an "Indian dogma" that was not part of the original teachings of the Buddha. However, rebirth could instead be understood as the recurrence of our selfish desires which could repeat themselves “in endless succeeding generations”. In this interpretation, our actions do have consequences beyond our present lives, but these are “collective not individual.”[74]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)
    Last edited by dukkha; 10-16-2020 at 11:06 AM.

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    practice of sky burial is closely related to philosophy of Tibetan Buddhism. Tibetans believe that if the vultures come and eat the body, it means that the dead has no sin and that his or her soul has gone peacefully to the Paradise. And the condors on the mountains around the celestial burial platform are "holy birds" and only eat the human body without attacking any small animals nearby. Any remains left by the holy birds must be collected up and burnt while the Lamas chant sutras to redeem the sins of the dead, because the remains would tie the spirits to this life.

    Sky Burial Tibet Video

    In addition to fierce and menacing vultures, the most intriguing part of sky funeral ritual is the body carrier (also known rogyapas or body breaker). They drag the dead body to the mountaintop and dissect it with blade. The whole process, as opposed to most people’s expectation, is done not with solemn expression or deep sorrow on their face.
    Body breakers chopped the body with laughter and smell as if they are doing other ordinary farm work, because Tibetan Buddhists believe that keeping a light-hearted atmosphere can help guide the dead to transcend from darkness to the next life. When the flesh is eaten up by vultures, the body breaker will smash the bone into pieces and mix it with tsampa (a staple food for Tibetans, made of barley flour) to feed the vultures.
    https://www.tibettravel.org/tibetan-...n-funeral.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukkha View Post
    remeber anatta = "no self" if there is no self there cannot be a reincarnation of self
    In fact the very idea of a permanent self while alive is nothing more then ego construct.

    But it does get complicated - I consider myself (lol that word) a Tibetian Buddhist
    after we die we go into realms and various states to reintegrate (samsara)

    The Tibetan Book of the Dead
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol
    ~~

    most Buddhist go with the "wager argument - bypassing the philosophical constructs.
    This is typically how Buddha reasoned out argument in his suttas as well



    In the 1940s, J.G. Jennings interpreted the teaching of rebirth in a less than literal sense. Believing that the doctrine of anatta (not-self) is incompatible with the view that the actions of one individual can have repercussions for the same individual in a future life, Jennings argued that the doctrine of actual transmigration was an "Indian dogma" that was not part of the original teachings of the Buddha. However, rebirth could instead be understood as the recurrence of our selfish desires which could repeat themselves “in endless succeeding generations”. In this interpretation, our actions do have consequences beyond our present lives, but these are “collective not individual.”[74]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)
    The Buddha was a great teacher in the Theravada Buddhist tradition, but I believe the Buddha is considered a cosmic being in the Mahayana Buddhist tradition.

    Your claim that Buddhism stands in stark contrast to the the Christian theology of a transcendent supernatural being does not seem entirely accurate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    The Buddha was a great teacher in the Theravada Buddhist tradition, but I believe the Buddha is considered a cosmic being in the Mahayana Buddhist tradition.
    In order to put these concepts in any attempted context,you have to understand the Abodes/Sakras -stuff I am barely familiar with
    Your claim that Buddhism stands in stark contrast to the the Christian theology of a transcendent supernatural being does not seem entirely accurate
    there are Bodhisattva and then there are just dead Buddhists.
    Bodhisattva can control their return, or delay from Enlightenment.

    The Dalai Llama is the same incarnation of self from earlier D.Llama
    The Dalai Llama is chosen/shown by monks (really identified by monks) because he already is enlightened -
    he willingly reincarnates to be next in line.

    The current Dalai Llama - because of Chinese complete control of Tibet -has said he may not choose reincarnation

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    I am not 100% sure if the Bodhisattva (common in Buddhism) reincarnation as self extends more then Tibetan Buddhism

    Tibetan Buddhism is attractive to myself because of the prayer wheels/flag that are physical generators of mantras

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    he uppermost point of the prayer wheel forms the shape of a lotus bud. The cylinder contains a sacred text written or printed on paper or animal skin. These texts might be sutra or invocations to particular deities (dharani or mantras). The most common text used in prayer wheels is the mantra Om mani padme hum.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Interesting thread. Many of my age cohort when I was in my teens and 20s were attracted to Buddhism. Like most new converts to something they were kind of preachy and enthusiastic. In order not to offend I read their handouts and studied a bit more on my own as well (this was in pre-Internet days). I found the nihilism and focus on suffering not for me. There seems more of a disconnect between reality, the physical world, and other beings than even Xtians have.

    What brought you to this belief system, and what keeps you? No sarcasm. Only a desire to learn.
    Your dirty hippie is showing.

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    Speaking of suffering... but not mine.

    This message is hidden because Matt Dillon is on your ignore list.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    But The Laziness never entirely faded. For the rest of the retreat, I felt like I could see more clearly, because my thoughts and emotions had become transparent. Things seemed charged with mythological import, especially when I was outside. The Hudson became The River. A path winding through woods became The Path. A brick wall was The Wall. A goldfinch preening in a pine tree was all the evidence anyone could want of Divine Creation.

    The retreat convinced me that contemplation can reproduce the effects of psychedelics, a claim I have long doubted. On the retreat, as during a trip, I saw life’s inexplicability and improbability, which I like to call “the weirdness.”
    On psychedelics, the weirdness screams at you. On the retreat, the weirdness murmured.
    Imagine the perceptual state that inspired Dickinson to write “A Bird Came Down the Walk.”

    In my old tripping days, when I encountered strangers, I shunned eye contact, because I feared people would see into my soul and know I was high. I felt that same reflexive fear during the retreat. I had to remind myself, You’re not doing anything illegal, fool! And everyone else here is probably tripping too!

    Some other students seemed to be in trances much deeper than mine. On the last day, when we could talk, a young man to whom I mentioned my looking-for-your-eyeballs analogy said he felt like he’d been looking for his head and realized he had no head. Whoa.

    It’s considered bad form to talk too directly about enlightenment, and I understand why. As Dickinson said, some things are best seen veiled. But enlightenment, I decided by the end of the retreat, is banal. It means simply appreciating each moment, no matter how mundane and annoying, as an end in itself, not as a means to another end, like making money or impressing others. Like, be here now, Dude.

    Easy to say, hard to do. Most of us see our lives as a series of chores to be completed, not moments to be cherished. I certainly do. An insidious effect of being a blogger is that my life becomes fodder for my writing. I’m not complaining, I love this gig, but there is a price.

    Is it worth devoting weeks, months, years, decades to cultivating hyper-attentiveness? Is that the best thing to do with life? No. There is no best thing to do with life, and Buddhism errs in implying otherwise. The exaltation of enlightenment makes us vulnerable to abuse by sleazy gurus. And seeking enlightenment is pretty self-indulgent. The world isn’t all fireflies and goldfinches. It has problems that need fixing, as I was reminded whenever I looked across the Hudson at the West Point Military Academy.

    But I’m glad I went on the retreat. The Lama, during our private chat, said Buddhism isn’t true, but it works. Something worked during the retreat, but what was it? My wishful thinking? Suggestibility? A charismatic guru assuring me over and over that I am Buddha? Hours and hours of meditation? Chanting? Staring at clouds? Isolation from my laptop, phone and Kindle? From email, Netflix, Twitter, Facebook, The New York Times, idle chitchat, all the usual distractions? The heat? Withdrawal from caffeine (I cut back when I took ayahuasca earlier this summer and quit entirely for the retreat)? Who knows.

    Now that I’m back in the real world (which, given the digital distractions, is more virtual than real), The Laziness is fading, becoming a memory, an idea. I don’t know what The Laziness is, and I’m suspicious of any explanation of it, Buddhist or otherwise. But I want to get it back, and sustain it, no matter what I’m doing. Grading freshman papers, waiting for the subway, watching Humans with my girlfriend. When I seek The Laziness, I am not living in the moment, I am looking for my eyeballs, but I can live with that paradox. I’m thinking of starting each day by chanting, D’oh.
    https://getpocket.com/explore/item/a...=pocket-newtab
    A Buddhism Critic Goes on a Silent Buddhist Retreat

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    Rami Sivan
    ·
    November 5
    Hindu Priest
    What is the process of Samsara?
    ~~

    Birth (Janma) — hunger & thirst (kṣut-pipāsa) — sickness (vyādhi) — changes and transformations (vikāra) — decline and old age (jarā) — death (mṛtyu) — rebirth (punar-janma) — and the cycle continues.

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    Dukkha is stupidity and disloyalty too, I'd guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    Dukkha is stupidity and disloyalty too, I'd guess.
    you just showed your stupidity. You cant even read a thread. your criticism is unfocused/ you cant control your mind

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    I found the nihilism and focus on suffering .... a disconnect between reality, the physical world, and other beings...
    The assessment of nihilism results from a] your witnessing their renunciation of worldly pleasures and b] how you would not choose to relinquish worldly pleasures.


    The assessment of focus on suffering is a misnomer. The maxim "Life is Suffering" refers to the actual state of affairs of life. Life is full of birth and death and old age and decease.

    The sentient being must constantly and consistently seek out 24/7 the means to eat, sleep, mate and defend. Defend is the guard against all sorts of elements. Sleep must have a lot of fore thought, and mating is famous for binding one's time strategically. We ARE in a suffering matrix. Realty is real BUT BUT BUT it is fleeting it's temporary, and even forgettable.

    Here the term "Maya" is used. One acquires pleasure ---but it always comes with conditions--- and a responsible person works through those conditions. Life is a No pain no gain scenario.

    .... a disconnect between reality, the physical world, and other beings... this is correctly stated. It's only those that see a temporal world kaleidoscoping all around seek to align there life with tranquility. Hence meditation and ashram life. Not to worry. The middle of the road course is always advised to be good for pedestrians.

    The inner being wants pleasure in the core of being ---rather that expending 24/7 works to acquire pleasures from outside.

    Yes the pleasures from outside are everywhere but the truth is that we can only take in so much. Even a pro porn star needs rest.

    We are all little porn stars. But there is a scenario of conscious being traveling around looking for pleasures ---that is the status quo.

    This is Maya aka illusion.

    Buddhism emphasizes release from the duality of a cosmos of pleasure and pain.

    All conscious beings do the same four activities: eat, sleep, mate and defend.

    In a cosmos where duality exists [and duality cannot be cleaved apart] where death exists, birth exists [both cannot be cleaved apart] ---the goal of nirvana is to cease taking re-births.

    But why cease seeking pleasure birth after birth? Because greed causes acts of bad karma. The greater they are the harder they fall.

    The poorest man never embezzles large sums. In any given birth so much bad-karma [aka sin] can be accrued un-knowingly, so a good birth of high esteem can be a path to great fall downs ---multiply this for countless births and the sentient being [aka the living entity aka the soul unit] looses control of where they find themselves birth after birth, sometime high sometime low and every shade of grey inbetween.

    You are not the material body, you are spirit soul.

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