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Thread: Is Elite College Worth It? Maybe Not

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Yes LV, it is "fundamentally fvck up" to post an article one finds interesting and then add one's own thoughts in order to create a discussion on a discussion board.
    But it wasn't interesting to you because it didn't conform to your world view. Which is why you added something to it so you could advance a narrow, entitled position that doesn't have anything to do with the Op-Ed you posted.

    So basically, you have it in your head that certain degree programs aren't of "value" or "worth" to your judgment. You find an Op-Ed that doesn't conform to that perspective, so by adding to it, you are manipulating the conversation away from what the Op-Ed is actually talking about, redefining the Op-Ed to include your perspective and having a debate about that.

    So you're not even addressing the Op-Ed! You just posted it and said, "I'm going to add this to it because they didn't include this thing that I think completely changes the complexion of what has been written simply because it conforms to my narrow world view."

    Then when you are shown actual, empirical evidence that tells you "hold up, the degree programs you said have little value, actually do have value and in fact, they have value to the specific sector of the economy you said they didn't," you ignore it because you have it in your head that Psych majors and English majors and History majors are wasting their time and money because you don't see the value in those degrees.

    But the reason you don't see the value is because you're actively not looking.

    That's why I posted the links to PayScale. Links you ignored in favor of your bullshit.

    What a fucking fraud.
    When I die, turn me into a brick and use me to cave in the skull of a fascist


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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Translation: It's entitlement to have an opinion or belief. Ok. Good thing you don't have any of those LV.
    No, it's entitlement to take the work someone else did and tack on your two cents that completely distract from the point of the work someone else did, so you can frame a conversation in a way that preserves your dogmatic beliefs.

    You're the stupid one who said there's no value in a Psych degree for those looking to get into "business", and then when I posted data from Payscale showing not only do Psych majors make the nation average, but that one of the top four employers of Psych majors is Bank of America, you ignored that.

    You didn't say "shit, looks like my preconceptions were wrong."

    You didn't say "fuck, maybe I've been thinking about this the wrong way"

    You didn't say "damn, well, that data completely upends my traditional thinking"

    You simply ignored it in favor of pushing the false narrative while also getting very whiny and bitchy.

    Why did you do that?
    When I die, turn me into a brick and use me to cave in the skull of a fascist


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    Quote Originally Posted by TTQ64 View Post
    [B]

    cawacky has threatened my life on this board. .
    lol.....death by being ignored......harsh.....

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  5. #154 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    ""cawacky has threatened my life on this board. He's personally attacked me several times.""


    TTQ64 you need help.
    he can prove it.......his whole arm is white and blue from the bruises.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Interesting read. I'd argue the one variable left out is the major the student chooses. If you want to go into the business world is studying Psychology at Harvard going to help you much more than a Business major at State U? Probably not. If your goal is I-Banking there are definite advantages to being in an Ivy.

    The reality is parents will continue to want their children to go to the best schools and we have not hit a tipping point where we see folks choosing otherwise.




    Is Elite College Worth It? Maybe Not

    Wealthy parents who spend heavily to get their kids into top schools aren’t giving them as big an advantage as commonly thought, research shows


    We’re told ad nauseam that college is the key to success. Is it any wonder that some parents broke the law to get their child into the best?

    Of course, the parents accused by the FBI of bribing coaches and test administrators are an extreme case, but even some law abiding parents can relate: Some donate millions to their alma mater or hire $1,000-per-hour consultants to land a coveted spot at a top school.

    And yet from an economic standpoint, this makes no sense. The evidence shows that a college degree delivers a large and sustained income premium over a high school diploma, but a selective college doesn’t make the premium bigger. There are exceptions, but most people who prosper after graduating from such a college would likely have prospered if they had attended a less prestigious institution as well. After all, the children whose parents were charged last week were born with wealth, connections, and devoted parents willing to do almost anything for them, a recipe for success no matter where they graduate from.

    Consequently, the outrage directed at parents who buy their children’s way legally or illegally into top colleges, while understandable, misses the point. Like an exclusive country club, admission to a top college is proof of status, not the source of it. A child bumped by another’s wealth has lost a trophy, not a future.

    The fact that smart, ambitious children who attend elite colleges also do well in life doesn’t mean the first caused the second. This was most clearly demonstrated in a pair of now famous papers by Stacy Dale of Mathematica Policy Research and Alan Krueger of Princeton University.

    Mr. Krueger, one of the country’s most admired and prolific labor market economists, died this past weekend, at the age of 58. His studies routinely overturned the conventional wisdom with innovative field experiments using obscure sources of data.

    The college study was one of them. He and Ms. Dale linked the college application choices drawn from a survey of graduates with their earnings results from the Social Security Administration over the next two to three decades. What they found was that two students with similar backgrounds, grades and test scores who applied to the same mix of selective and nonselective schools earned about the same later on, even if the first attended a selective school and the second didn’t. The choice of schools applied to was indicative of ambition which, they argue, is a more powerful driver of success than the school they attend. “The return to college selectivity [is] indistinguishable from zero,” they wrote in 2011.

    The fact that the school you attended makes little difference to your future income doesn’t mean quality doesn’t matter. Rather, quality defined as how effectively a school raises a particular student’s achievement isn’t the same as selectivity. Says Ms. Dale: “In colleges and universities, people are hired based on research, not on their teaching skills. The best teachers may not be at the best schools.”

    Doug Webber, an economist at Temple University, says the elite colleges Ms. Dale and Mr. Krueger examined were only slightly better, academically, than the nonelite colleges. Where quality differences are starker, so are the effects on income. He says one study found no premium for attending the University of Texas instead of other Texas state schools, which are ranked only slightly lower, while another found a big premium for attending the University of Florida, which he says ranks much better than other state schools.

    The same phenomenon appears overseas, where parents can be even more obsessed with elite colleges than Americans, even if they don’t spend as much getting their children into them.

    Magne Mostad, a Norwegian-born economist now at the University of Chicago, and two co-authors conducted a study in Norway similar to that of Mr. Krueger and Ms. Dale’s. When adjusted for age, gender and high-school grades, graduates of elite universities did earn slightly more than others, but what they studied mattered far more: Science graduates earned almost triple what humanities graduates did.

    So if selective schools have so little effect on a student’s future income, is it irrational for parents to pay so much and suffer so much anxiety, to get their child into one? In part, parents may simply value noneconomic factors, like bragging rights at parties or the chance for their child to marry within a particular social network.

    Admission to such schools is also like a lottery ticket: Your odds of reaching the top of business or politics are always low, but not quite as low if you share the same dorm as the future chief executive of a Fortune 500 company or U.S. president.

    And focusing only on the benefits to the wealthy may miss the full picture. Ms. Dale and Mr. Krueger found that African-American and Hispanic students, and those whose parents didn’t go to college, actually did enjoy an income boost from a selective college, perhaps, the researchers said, owing to networking opportunities they otherwise wouldn’t have had.


    https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-elit...d=hp_lead_pos9
    I can't disagree at all. I think that's what has most people who are aware of college rankings and how college actually works in the real world are chuckling about was that about half the folks caught up in the scandal would spend that kind of money to get their kids to USC. Not to pick on USC but there's about a dimes bit of difference between USC and the other top 200 Universities in the country. It's all about status.

    Also, as you said the program/major your in counts far more than the school. The example I site, from my own experience, is materials science/engineering. When I was working in that field at Ohio State of the three top rated Materials Science Programs (at that time) none where at an Ivy League School. in the mid 90's the top rated materials science programs were at Alfred State College - SUNY, University of Illinois and The Ohio State University (in that order). That's also one of the highest paying engineering fields.

    Another example would be the University of Oklahoma's Petroleum Engineering program. It's rated not only the best in the nation but the best in the world and is super hard to get into. Some of the best students from Petroleum producing countries from all over the world enter that program.

    Then, as the paper stated, the major you have makes a big difference too. Someone motivated to take a truly rigorous major at any accredited US University is probably going to do quite well in the real world.

    But that's just college....there's far more than college that goes into success...like social status, family wealth and mentoring. Hell mentoring is probably as important, if not more so, than education is to outcomes.
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    a business degree is a box to check on an application........95% of companies hiring don't care where you got your degree or what what your grades were.......have any of you ever gotten a job where the employer wanted a copy of your transcript or even checked to see if you really graduated?........

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    ONE-N-DONE, YOU GOT PLAYED; Time To Play-On
    Remember ... ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES ... So STFU Bitch

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    But it wasn't interesting to you because it didn't conform to your world view. Which is why you added something to it so you could advance a narrow, entitled position that doesn't have anything to do with the Op-Ed you posted.

    So basically, you have it in your head that certain degree programs aren't of "value" or "worth" to your judgment. You find an Op-Ed that doesn't conform to that perspective, so by adding to it, you are manipulating the conversation away from what the Op-Ed is actually talking about, redefining the Op-Ed to include your perspective and having a debate about that.

    So you're not even addressing the Op-Ed! You just posted it and said, "I'm going to add this to it because they didn't include this thing that I think completely changes the complexion of what has been written simply because it conforms to my narrow world view."

    Then when you are shown actual, empirical evidence that tells you "hold up, the degree programs you said have little value, actually do have value and in fact, they have value to the specific sector of the economy you said they didn't," you ignore it because you have it in your head that Psych majors and English majors and History majors are wasting their time and money because you don't see the value in those degrees.

    But the reason you don't see the value is because you're actively not looking.

    That's why I posted the links to PayScale. Links you ignored in favor of your bullshit.

    What a fucking fraud.
    Did you have OCD? Or is there another clinical name for what you suffer from? Look how worked up and angry you are over my comment. You honestly need help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I did not read the OP either, but I make it a point to see what you have to say when I get a chance.

    I do not have enough actual personal experience and evidence to have a strong opinion on the role of elite colleges. Maybe it is because elite universities are more common in the eastern U.S., or maybe it's because I have only had garden variety corporate and academic jobs. I really do not meet that many professionals who went to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton. Are they all on the express train to careers in the State Department, Wall Street, and foreign service? Way outside my league, man!

    I do have a very distinct impression that the top notch science talent really does end up at the elite universities. You almost cannot be a top tier scientific researcher without Ivy League, MIT, Cal Tech, or at least an elite, top tier public university under your belt (UC Berkley, Michigan etc.). I have run across exceedingly few elite scientists and researchers with PhDs from University of Montana, Kansas State University, University of Maine, et al.
    I have met some top tier scientist that did not go to Ivy league schools. Arune Varshnaya I had the pleasure to meet and he was considered the top glass/ceramic scientist in the nation. He wasn't an Ivy league grad. In fact what you're saying is probably true about scientist who pursue research in basic sciences. It's absolutely not true in the applied sciences. In fact in applied science private sector scientist outpace public sector scientist by a wide margin, IMHO. You don't find to many Jack Kilby's in academia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    You're saying you didn't believe either of them because you'd have to actually do the work to come to a conclusion, and since you're lazy as fuck, it's easier for you to just throw your hands up and posture that you're above it all, when you're really beneath it all.

    Believing someone isn't something based in fact, it's wholly a subjective judgment. By refusing to make that selective judgment, or judging them both equally, what you're really telling the world is that you cannot be expected to make distinctions and differences, and everyone should lower their expectations of you. Which is entitlement. So fuck you, and fuck your entitlement.

    This thoughtful moderate centrism is for show; it's really laziness masquerading as centrism.
    You used a lot of words and took a long time to say that your political biases formed your decision. Try looking at an issue from both sides sometime. What could it hurt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    According to Payscale, those who graduate with a degree in psychology make an average wage of $57K, which is also the national average wage too.

    Conservatives hate psychology because it answers the question; why are Conservatives so fucked up in the head?
    It's been my experience that folks with degrees in psychology do quite well in corporate sales.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    I have met some top tier scientist that did not go to Ivy league schools. Arune Varshnaya I had the pleasure to meet and he was considered the top glass/ceramic scientist in the nation. He wasn't an Ivy league grad. In fact what you're saying is probably true about scientist who pursue research in basic sciences. It's absolutely not true in the applied sciences. In fact in applied science private sector scientist outpace public sector scientist by a wide margin, IMHO. You don't find to many Jack Kilby's in academia.
    It is always refreshing when you post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    C.O.: "You are always at your very worst. Why such hostility over such a benign thread?"
    Jack: I didn't think my post was 'hostile'.
    That comment was not directed at you, Jack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Let me guess, that was your major and that's why you are crying right now.

    You choose to ignore the premise of the article and what I posted to cry about your major because you think it's equal to a business major for someone who wants to go into business. But again, you choose not to discuss the article you just want to scream and shout. Poor LV.
    Well actually I've been in the corporate world from quite some time and I've seen a lot of psychology grads succeed in sales. In fact if I know I'm dealing with one of them I'm like double/triple guard up cause some of those fuckers are masters at manipulation. I wouldn't underestimate them. They have a way of getting you to eat a shit sandwhich with a smile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Controlled Opposition View Post
    You used a lot of words and took a long time to say that your political biases formed your decision. Try looking at an issue from both sides sometime. What could it hurt?
    it would hurt his ability to be in denial.

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