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Thread: Is Elite College Worth It? Maybe Not

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    Don't whine when someone attacks you for being a piece of shit, lying scumbag who draws false conclusions because you're too fucking lazy to do the work of being informed.




    What's sad is that your mind is so weak and your ability to think critically is so non-existent that you draw false conclusions from opinion articles and rather than defend your false conclusions, you appeal to the authority of whoever wrote the Op-ED and shrug your way through debates and conversations.

    You're a phony and a fraud, and I see right fucking through you.
    Nope, you're full of sh*t and that's why you are crying about your psychology major. Going to an "elite" school myself I disagree with the article but at the same time "elite" colleges don't guarantee success and plenty of people do quite fine in life without attending an "elite" college.

    With the "elite" school scandal it's obviously a hot topic right now but you'd rather cry about your psychology major.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    You choose to ignore the premise of the articl
    We can't even discuss the article because you drew false conclusions from it!

    You didn't bother to do the minimum basic research necessary to have an informed opinion.

    When called out on it, you try to make it about me, rather than about you since you're the one who came to a poor conclusion based on ignorance and prejudice. You lobbed out a major to attack, then when it was revealed to your surprise that particular major is hired by the very firms you're saying don't hire them, instead of saying "whoops, looks like I was wrong", you attack me for pointing it out.

    What a fucking slob.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Nope, you're full of sh*t and that's why you are crying about your psychology major
    You said that firms wouldn't hire Psych majors, and then literally one of the top four firms that hired Psych majors was a bank.

    So what conclusions am I to draw from you, given that you have an aversion to doing the most basic forms of research to protect yourself from making a dumb argument?

    That's the thing; doing research protects you. But you don't do that. You substitute opinion for fact, and then you appeal to the authority of whoever's opinion you're using to advance your narrow perspective at any given time.

    What a fucking fraud.
    When I die, turn me into a brick and use me to cave in the skull of a fascist


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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    The last line, "network opportunities" is a biggie

    I live in the NE where private schools are dominate, and in this area it does mean something to graduate from one of those smaller private schools. Having also lived in Florida for awhile, I know it means more to graduate from UF than any other institution down there, and in both cases it is because of networking. Suppose geographical location also has something to do with it, it would be more difficult to expect success getting an enviable position in NYC graduating from UF than say a Colgate or Bucknell

    Personally, I do know based upon myself and my children, the small private college offers a better education than the large State institutions
    That's what the argument essentially boils down to. When I was choosing a college I was sitting with my father and we were going over my options and he asked "where do you want to live when you're older?" I said California. He said of the schools I got into to USC had the best network in California and that's why I choose it. To your point ask anyone who has lived in Southern California the power of the USC network. It's very real. Just like the schools and areas you listed.

    You want to work on Wall St? No better place to go than the Ivy's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LV426 View Post
    We can't even discuss the article because you drew false conclusions from it!

    You didn't bother to do the minimum basic research necessary to have an informed opinion.

    When called out on it, you try to make it about me, rather than about you since you're the one who came to a poor conclusion based on ignorance and prejudice. You lobbed out a major to attack, then when it was revealed to your surprise that particular major is hired by the very firms you're saying don't hire them, instead of saying "whoops, looks like I was wrong", you attack me for pointing it out.

    What a fucking slob.
    All this writing and whining and it's pretty clear you didn't even read the OP. Get over yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Going to an "elite" school myself I disagree with the article but at the same time "elite" colleges don't guarantee success and plenty of people do quite fine in life without attending an "elite" college.
    I wouldn't call USC an "Elite school"...for film and media production, sure, but that's about it.

    And your point was that it was the choice of major that was the problem. But you didn't bother to do a simple google search of "average annual salary of (insert major here) major".

    Doing that would have revealed that most of the majors you subjectively deem as worthless actually end up with average salaries above the national average, and that was particularly true in the case of History majors, where the average salary according to Payscale is $5K more than the US average.


    With the "elite" school scandal it's obviously a hot topic right now but you'd rather cry about your psychology major.
    I don't have a degree in Psychology, so that's one more thing you're wrong about because you're a fucking piece of shit who doesn't know anything. You're just making it all up as you go, posturing the whole time.
    When I die, turn me into a brick and use me to cave in the skull of a fascist


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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    All this writing and whining and it's pretty clear you didn't even read the OP. Get over yourself.
    There you go, appealing to the authority of the Op-ED you stole instead of defending the poor conclusions you drew from it. What a fucking lightweight.
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    Hello reagansghost,

    Quote Originally Posted by reagansghost View Post
    you're a piece of shit whether you post articles or not
    That is totally WRONG!

    Cawacko, in my experience, is one of the noble posters here who can express himself without being vulgar and nasty. Despite the fact that we rarely agree, I always appreciate hearing cawacko's comments, and I have never known him to make a personal attack on another poster. This is admirable, because he is routinely the object of completely unfounded attacks. You have reduced your own credibility by making this unfounded personal attack, reagansghost (not that there is any respectable reason for ever making one.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I do have a very distinct impression that the top notch science talent really does end up at the elite universities. You almost cannot be a top tier scientific researcher without Ivy League, MIT, Cal Tech, or at least an elite, top tier public university under your belt (UC Berkley, Michigan etc.). I have run across exceedingly few elite scientists and researchers with PhDs from University of Montana, Kansas State University, University of Maine, et al.
    I graduated from LSU dental school and I can tell you for a fact where someone went for undergrad was meaningless .
    I also worked with a Harvard dental school grad and he was pretty worthless. Lazy. But he sure let everybody know where he went to dental school.
    But maybe I'm being too harsh.
    LSU is the top ranked dental school in the country.
    https://schools.studentdoctor.net/sc...ool-rankings/0

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello reagansghost,



    That is totally WRONG!

    Cawacko, in my experience, is one of the noble posters here who can express himself without being vulgar and nasty. Despite the fact that we rarely agree, I always appreciate hearing cawacko's comments, and I have never known him to make a personal attack on another poster. This is admirable, because he is routinely the object of completely unfounded attacks. You have reduced your own credibility by making this unfounded personal attack, reagansghost (not that there is any respectable reason for ever making one.)
    While I appreciate the support I've made comments I regret and said things I wish I hadn't so I'm no better than most. However considering we generally don't see eye to eye politically I appreciate what you wrote.

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    Hello cawacko,

    Excellent thread. Thanks for posting.

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Interesting read. I'd argue the one variable left out is the major the student chooses. If you want to go into the business world is studying Psychology at Harvard going to help you much more than a Business major at State U? Probably not. If your goal is I-Banking there are definite advantages to being in an Ivy.

    The reality is parents will continue to want their children to go to the best schools and we have not hit a tipping point where we see folks choosing otherwise.


    Is Elite College Worth It? Maybe Not

    Wealthy parents who spend heavily to get their kids into top schools aren’t giving them as big an advantage as commonly thought, research shows

    We’re told ad nauseam that college is the key to success. Is it any wonder that some parents broke the law to get their child into the best?

    Of course, the parents accused by the FBI of bribing coaches and test administrators are an extreme case, but even some law abiding parents can relate: Some donate millions to their alma mater or hire $1,000-per-hour consultants to land a coveted spot at a top school.

    And yet from an economic standpoint, this makes no sense. The evidence shows that a college degree delivers a large and sustained income premium over a high school diploma, but a selective college doesn’t make the premium bigger. There are exceptions, but most people who prosper after graduating from such a college would likely have prospered if they had attended a less prestigious institution as well. After all, the children whose parents were charged last week were born with wealth, connections, and devoted parents willing to do almost anything for them, a recipe for success no matter where they graduate from.

    Consequently, the outrage directed at parents who buy their children’s way legally or illegally into top colleges, while understandable, misses the point. Like an exclusive country club, admission to a top college is proof of status, not the source of it. A child bumped by another’s wealth has lost a trophy, not a future.

    The fact that smart, ambitious children who attend elite colleges also do well in life doesn’t mean the first caused the second. This was most clearly demonstrated in a pair of now famous papers by Stacy Dale of Mathematica Policy Research and Alan Krueger of Princeton University.

    Mr. Krueger, one of the country’s most admired and prolific labor market economists, died this past weekend, at the age of 58. His studies routinely overturned the conventional wisdom with innovative field experiments using obscure sources of data.

    The college study was one of them. He and Ms. Dale linked the college application choices drawn from a survey of graduates with their earnings results from the Social Security Administration over the next two to three decades. What they found was that two students with similar backgrounds, grades and test scores who applied to the same mix of selective and nonselective schools earned about the same later on, even if the first attended a selective school and the second didn’t. The choice of schools applied to was indicative of ambition which, they argue, is a more powerful driver of success than the school they attend. “The return to college selectivity [is] indistinguishable from zero,” they wrote in 2011.

    The fact that the school you attended makes little difference to your future income doesn’t mean quality doesn’t matter. Rather, quality defined as how effectively a school raises a particular student’s achievement isn’t the same as selectivity. Says Ms. Dale: “In colleges and universities, people are hired based on research, not on their teaching skills. The best teachers may not be at the best schools.”

    Doug Webber, an economist at Temple University, says the elite colleges Ms. Dale and Mr. Krueger examined were only slightly better, academically, than the nonelite colleges. Where quality differences are starker, so are the effects on income. He says one study found no premium for attending the University of Texas instead of other Texas state schools, which are ranked only slightly lower, while another found a big premium for attending the University of Florida, which he says ranks much better than other state schools.

    The same phenomenon appears overseas, where parents can be even more obsessed with elite colleges than Americans, even if they don’t spend as much getting their children into them.

    Magne Mostad, a Norwegian-born economist now at the University of Chicago, and two co-authors conducted a study in Norway similar to that of Mr. Krueger and Ms. Dale’s. When adjusted for age, gender and high-school grades, graduates of elite universities did earn slightly more than others, but what they studied mattered far more: Science graduates earned almost triple what humanities graduates did.

    So if selective schools have so little effect on a student’s future income, is it irrational for parents to pay so much and suffer so much anxiety, to get their child into one? In part, parents may simply value noneconomic factors, like bragging rights at parties or the chance for their child to marry within a particular social network.

    Admission to such schools is also like a lottery ticket: Your odds of reaching the top of business or politics are always low, but not quite as low if you share the same dorm as the future chief executive of a Fortune 500 company or U.S. president.

    And focusing only on the benefits to the wealthy may miss the full picture. Ms. Dale and Mr. Krueger found that African-American and Hispanic students, and those whose parents didn’t go to college, actually did enjoy an income boost from a selective college, perhaps, the researchers said, owing to networking opportunities they otherwise wouldn’t have had.


    https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-elit...d=hp_lead_pos9
    I would completely concur.

    There are seemingly limitless examples of extraordinary people who have excelled in life without the benefit of elite college, or even a 4 year degree from ANY university.

    10 Poorly Educated But Incredibly Successful People

    10. John D Rockfeller
    9. Horace Greeley
    8. John Glenn
    7. Steve Jobs
    6. Mark Twain
    5. Henry Ford
    4. William Shakespeare
    3. Winston Churchill
    2. Abraham Lincoln
    1. Albert Einstein.

    Not mentioned:

    Thomas Edison.

    The most telling phrase that popped for me when I read the OP: "bragging rights at parties."
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    These pages could be FILLED with examples of very great individuals who did not benefit from an elite school education.

    One that comes to mind is George Washington Carver.

    "George Washington Carver (1860s[1][2] – January 5, 1943), was an American agricultural scientist and inventor. He actively promoted alternative crops to cotton and methods to prevent soil depletion.[3]

    While a professor at Tuskegee Institute, Carver developed techniques to improve soils depleted by repeated plantings of cotton. He wanted poor farmers to grow alternative crops, such as peanuts and sweet potatoes, as a source of their own food and to improve their quality of life. The most popular of his 44 practical bulletins for farmers contained 105 food recipes using peanuts. Although he spent years developing and promoting numerous products made from peanuts, none became commercially successful.[4]

    Apart from his work to improve the lives of farmers, Carver was also a leader in promoting environmentalism.[5] He received numerous honors for his work, including the Spingarn Medal of the NAACP. In an era of very high racial polarization, his fame reached beyond the black community. He was widely recognized and praised in the white community for his many achievements and talents. In 1941, Time magazine dubbed Carver a "Black Leonardo".[6] "

    "Carver applied to several colleges before being accepted at Highland University in Highland, Kansas. When he arrived, however, they rejected him because of his race. In August 1886, Carver traveled by wagon with J. F. Beeler from Highland to Eden Township in Ness County, Kansas.[10] He homesteaded a claim[11] near Beeler, where he maintained a small conservatory of plants and flowers and a geological collection. He manually plowed 17 acres (69,000 m2) of the claim, planting rice, corn, Indian corn and garden produce, as well as various fruit trees, forest trees, and shrubbery. He also earned money by odd jobs in town and worked as a ranch hand.[10]

    In early 1888, Carver obtained a $300 loan at the Bank of Ness City for education. By June he left the area.[10] In 1890, Carver started studying art and piano at Simpson College in Indianola, Iowa.[12] His art teacher, Etta Budd, recognized Carver's talent for painting flowers and plants; she encouraged him to study botany at Iowa State Agricultural College (now Iowa State University) in Ames.[12]

    When he began there in 1891, he was the first black student at Iowa State.[13] Carver's Bachelor's thesis for a degree in Agriculture was "Plants as Modified by Man", dated 1894.[14][15] Iowa State University professors Joseph Budd and Louis Pammel convinced Carver to continue there for his master's degree.[13] Carver did research at the Iowa Experiment Station under Pammel during the next two years. His work at the experiment station in plant pathology and mycology first gained him national recognition and respect as a botanist. Carver received his master of science degree in 1896.[15] Carver taught as the first black faculty member at Iowa State. " (wiki)
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    Here is a shining example of elite higher education:

    "Former lawmaker and lawyer Kang Yong-seok has been jailed for forging documents related to an adultery case he represents.

    The Seoul Central District Court sentenced the Harvard Law School graduate to a year in prison on Wednesday. He was taken to a detention center immediately after the ruling. His lawyer's license was suspended.

    Kang was embroiled in an adultery case in 2014 and the husband of Kang's alleged partner ― popular blogger Kim Mi-na, nicknamed Dodo mom ― filed a damages suit against him in January 2015, demanding 100 million won in compensation.

    Three months later, Kang was accused again of colluding with Kim to forge documents sealed by the husband in an illegal scheme to drop the case. "


    Harvard-graduate lawyer jailed for document forgery
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    Is Vanderbilt an elite school?

    Apparently they need to step up on ethics education:

    Vanderbilt Grad Guilty Of Sexual Assault
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    What do you think of our newest SCOTUS?

    He is accused of sexual assault.

    'Kav' is a Yale man.

    What the guy.

    She feared for her life, afraid that he would accidentally suffocate her as he laughed in his drunkenness and covered her mouth to keep her quiet as he held her down against her will.

    That's the sworn testimony.
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