To the pro-lifers

[KingRaw!]

You clearly see that, yet at the same time defend legal abortion.
More hypocrisy from the pro-choice crowd.

I admit I'm not pro-life. I'm for abortion and the death penalty. I don't see fetuses as valuable life. I never said that at all. I'm just using your logic to show you your hypocrisy on certain situations dumbass.

But your comparison is not valid because in cases where the mother would die before bringing the child to term, the baby dies with the mother. It's not a matter of either or, it's a matter of one lives, or none lives. One is better than none.

That's not in most cases. If it were then it would say "When both the mother and unborn's lives are in danger". I'm talking about where only the moms life is in danger. Besides, the doctors could just perform surgery and get the baby out.

Yes, it is still legal. And you people should be proud of yourselves. Your death toll beats Hitler, Stalin, PolPot, and a whole lot of others combined. Congratulations.


Yep, I'm worse than Hitler. Hell, I'm just as bad as a kkk member. Why don't I go hang some niggers while I'm at it! This is why people like you are rejected by society, liberal and conservative. You are no worse than Coulter and Falwell!


But I ain't kissing anyone's ass. I'll fight legal abortion until the day I die, as will everyone in my family, and a whole lot more of us. Like slavery and anti-semetism, someday the world will realize the inhumanity of abortion and treat it for the despicable subhuman shit that it is.


Too bad loser, we win and you lose. Na na na na naaa na!Na na na na naaa na!Na na na na naaa na! Obama will win the election and Abortion will remain legal for years to come. Thanks to radicals like Bush, you're views will forever be linked to his pathetic reign. And to think, someone like you ruined it for your cause....AHAHAHAHAHHAHA! Thanks Good Luck, you really made it easy for us KKK members....wait....Obama's black! Maybe Hillary will win...oh wait....she's a woman.....But we all share the same views and yet we are racist bigots.....hmmmm.........


Not accepting an invitation to join a different discussion board does not refute nor negate the argument. The fact that you claim so just reinforces the obvious fact that you cannot factually refute the statements.


No, I already made you look like an ass....wait, you made yourself look like an ass with your kkk comarison and babies are like criminals comparison. I'm the only one actually debating with you here and it's all the same old shit. Nothing changes so it's just us making the same points for days and days. Why not debate with other dems? You are scared of more people looking at you like they would Pat Robertson. It's ok, I still tell them about you so they still end up looking at you that way.


Which is pure hypocrisy coming from you considering you support ALL legalized abortion, not just in special cases.


Hey dumbass, I was using her own logic against her!


Actually, allowing abortion where the pregnancy will kill the mother before bringing the child to term it is a case of either one dies or both die. In both cases the child dies. May as well save ONE life as opposed to none.

Your entire diatribe is based on the false assumption that the child would somehow survive the mother's death. Only time that happens is when it is a complication in delivery, not a complication in the pregnancy. With the exception of hydroencephalisis those kinds of complications are impossible to accurately predict, so predetermined threat to the mother's life does not come into play.


Complete BS! In most cases the mother is the only one in danger, not the baby. Keep it up with your right-wing propaganda. it only makes me look good. Idiot.


Yes, I see your hypocrisy in everything I read from you in this thread.


I could say the exact same thing dumbass.

[KingRaw!]

If rape were something people could make the choice to avoid, I would agree with you, and I wouldn't favor abortion in the case of rape. But like robbery or mugging, rape is a crime perpetrated on an innocent victim. No woman makes the choice to be raped, if they do, it is by definition, no longer "rape" and not subject to the exception granted.

But rape is something you can avoid. Don't you ever listen to O'Reilly? If you don't want to get raped then don't put yourself in situations where you are more likely to get raped.


Let me add, my personal convictions have nothing to do with this. If I were a woman who was raped and became pregnant, I would have to have the baby, there would be no other option for me personally. Unlike you, I don't want to force my morality (in your case, immorality) on the rest of society. I realize we live in a big melting pot and every person has his or her personal morals and ethics. That said, there is a line between morality and human decency, and it seems we should be able to find a solution on the side of human decency without imposing personal morality.


Let me see if I'm getting this right. I'M trying to shove my beliefs down everyone's throats by giving you the right to choose to have an abortion! But YOU AREN'T when you want to make the right to choose banned because of your beliefs!

[Good Luck]

You clearly see that, yet at the same time defend legal abortion.
More hypocrisy from the pro-choice crowd.

I admit I'm not pro-life. I'm for abortion and the death penalty. I don't see fetuses as valuable life. I never said that at all. I'm just using your logic to show you your hypocrisy on certain situations dumbass.

But your comparison is not valid because in cases where the mother would die before bringing the child to term, the baby dies with the mother. It's not a matter of either or, it's a matter of one lives, or none lives. One is better than none.

That's not in most cases. If it were then it would say "When both the mother and unborn's lives are in danger". I'm talking about where only the moms life is in danger. Besides, the doctors could just perform surgery and get the baby out.

Yes, it is still legal. And you people should be proud of yourselves. Your death toll beats Hitler, Stalin, PolPot, and a whole lot of others combined. Congratulations.


Yep, I'm worse than Hitler. Hell, I'm just as bad as a kkk member. Why don't I go hang some niggers while I'm at it! This is why people like you are rejected by society, liberal and conservative. You are no worse than Coulter and Falwell!


But I ain't kissing anyone's ass. I'll fight legal abortion until the day I die, as will everyone in my family, and a whole lot more of us. Like slavery and anti-semetism, someday the world will realize the inhumanity of abortion and treat it for the despicable subhuman shit that it is.


Too bad loser, we win and you lose. Na na na na naaa na!Na na na na naaa na!Na na na na naaa na! Obama will win the election and Abortion will remain legal for years to come. Thanks to radicals like Bush, you're views will forever be linked to his pathetic reign. And to think, someone like you ruined it for your cause....AHAHAHAHAHHAHA! Thanks Good Luck, you really made it easy for us KKK members....wait....Obama's black! Maybe Hillary will win...oh wait....she's a woman.....But we all share the same views and yet we are racist bigots.....hmmmm.........


Not accepting an invitation to join a different discussion board does not refute nor negate the argument. The fact that you claim so just reinforces the obvious fact that you cannot factually refute the statements.


No, I already made you look like an ass....wait, you made yourself look like an ass with your kkk comarison and babies are like criminals comparison. I'm the only one actually debating with you here and it's all the same old shit. Nothing changes so it's just us making the same points for days and days. Why not debate with other dems? You are scared of more people looking at you like they would Pat Robertson. It's ok, I still tell them about you so they still end up looking at you that way.


Which is pure hypocrisy coming from you considering you support ALL legalized abortion, not just in special cases.


Hey dumbass, I was using her own logic against her!


Actually, allowing abortion where the pregnancy will kill the mother before bringing the child to term it is a case of either one dies or both die. In both cases the child dies. May as well save ONE life as opposed to none.

Your entire diatribe is based on the false assumption that the child would somehow survive the mother's death. Only time that happens is when it is a complication in delivery, not a complication in the pregnancy. With the exception of hydroencephalisis those kinds of complications are impossible to accurately predict, so predetermined threat to the mother's life does not come into play.


Complete BS! In most cases the mother is the only one in danger, not the baby. Keep it up with your right-wing propaganda. it only makes me look good. Idiot.


Yes, I see your hypocrisy in everything I read from you in this thread.


I could say the exact same thing dumbass.

Your entire diatribe simply proves what a braindead useless lump of putrid shit you are. You are completely ignorant of medicine, completely ignorant of the basics of biology, and are claiming to be literally proud of the ability to kill innocent children. And then you wonder why you are lumped in with Hitler and PolPot.

Not once have you used facts or even logic to refute what I say. I say dehumanization is the same regardless of the excuse, and all you can do is stomp your feet in a childish tantrum saying "you bad bad man for saying such awful things!"

When one is reduced to saying "Na na na na naaa na!" then it is obvious their arguments have been reduced to zero validity. Seems to me a more accurate phrase for your post would be "wa wa wa wa waaa wa!"

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Your entire diatribe simply proves what a braindead useless lump of putrid shit you are. You are completely ignorant of medicine, completely ignorant of the basics of biology, and are claiming to be literally proud of the ability to kill innocent children. And then you wonder why you are lumped in with Hitler and PolPot.

Not once have you used facts or even logic to refute what I say. I say dehumanization is the same regardless of the excuse, and all you can do is stomp your feet in a childish tantrum saying "you bad bad man for saying such awful things!"

When one is reduced to saying "Na na na na naaa na!" then it is obvious their arguments have been reduced to zero validity. Seems to me a more accurate phrase for your post would be "wa wa wa wa waaa wa!"

What a baby whiner. Someone call the WWHHHAAAMBULANCE! Not even one rational word comes out of this child cowards mouth, just insults, which proves he knows he's wrong.

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I, for one, don't support allowing abortion in the case of rape.



If it is determined by three medical professionals that an abortion is necessary for maternal health, it should be permitted. However, it should be done in a humane manner. Burning the baby in acid, or tearing him/her apart limb by limb, is not acceptable behavior. We're supposed to be a "civilized" country.

1. It is not a baby.

2. It can't feel pain. Therefore, it should be done in the way that's safest possible for the mother.

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

If rape were something people could make the choice to avoid, I would agree with you, and I wouldn't favor abortion in the case of rape. But like robbery or mugging, rape is a crime perpetrated on an innocent victim. No woman makes the choice to be raped, if they do, it is by definition, no longer "rape" and not subject to the exception granted.

But rape is something you can avoid. Don't you ever listen to O'Reilly? If you don't want to get raped then don't put yourself in situations where you are more likely to get raped.


Let me add, my personal convictions have nothing to do with this. If I were a woman who was raped and became pregnant, I would have to have the baby, there would be no other option for me personally. Unlike you, I don't want to force my morality (in your case, immorality) on the rest of society. I realize we live in a big melting pot and every person has his or her personal morals and ethics. That said, there is a line between morality and human decency, and it seems we should be able to find a solution on the side of human decency without imposing personal morality.


Let me see if I'm getting this right. I'M trying to shove my beliefs down everyone's throats by giving you the right to choose to have an abortion! But YOU AREN'T when you want to make the right to choose banned because of your beliefs!

Rape is a crime perpetrated on an innocent victim, I would venture to say, not a single instance of rape has ever been voluntary. You keep spewing this idiocy about "avoiding" rape, and I don't understand how that is done. If you have some way of every woman to always "avoid" being attacked and personally assaulted, please let me know what it is, let society know for God's sake, what kind of monster are you? Rapes happen, sometimes they happen for no particular reason other than the rapist picks someone randomly to rape. Victims have no "choice" in the matter. Of course, you already know this, you are just being a smart ass. Thing is, it's not very smart at all, which means you are looking like a complete dumb ass.


You are trying to shove your stupid beliefs down societies throat by continuing to deny biological facts and claim a human being is something else. You've presented NO scientific evidence to support this insane belief, it is simply your lack of human decency and complete bigoted ignorance. We don't give people the "right to choose" when to kill people who inconvenience them! We have no right to give that right! This is what you morons can't seem to comprehend here, it's a matter of human decency, and abortion, for the most part, exceeds any semblance of it.

[KingRaw!]

Rape is a crime perpetrated on an innocent victim, I would venture to say, not a single instance of rape has ever been voluntary.


And a woman who uses birth control is not voluntarily trying to get pregnant.


You keep spewing this idiocy about "avoiding" rape, and I don't understand how that is done.

Don't hang out with "fishy" people. Don't get drunk at parties. Don't go in dangerous parts of town. It's just as dumb of an argument as "well, don't have sex at all." Yeah like that's going to happen derrrr.

Thing is, it's not very smart at all, which means you are looking like a complete dumb ass.


Exactly! I'm using the pro-life arguments against you. Of Course they sound like something an immature 6th grader would say! For God sakes, Good Luck is comparing pro-choicers to Hitler and the KKK!


You are trying to shove your stupid beliefs down societies throat by continuing to deny biological facts and claim a human being is something else.


And you are trying to shove your stupid beliefs down societies throat by forcing women to ruin their lives and go into poverty and other children as well.


You've presented NO scientific evidence to support this insane belief, it is simply your lack of human decency and complete bigoted ignorance.


I'm the bigot for allowing a woman to choose whether or not to be miserable for the rest of her life but you aren't for trying to ban her from doing that? Yeah ok darsh! millions of children still need to be adopted and they probably never will. 127,000 in the US alone. AIDS, extreme poverty, overpopulation, bad economy, child abuse, child drug abuse etc are perfect reasons to support my nutjob views. What's your reason? A fetus is technically a human. OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO oh no you Did-ant!


What a baby whiner. Someone call the WWHHHAAAMBULANCE! Not even one rational word comes out of this child cowards mouth, just insults, which proves he knows he's wrong.


Boy I really hope you weren't talking about me.


When one is reduced to saying "Na na na na naaa na!" then it is obvious their arguments have been reduced to zero validity.


But comparing me to Hitler isn't? Look pussy, I can pretty much compare just about any view with Hitler and the KKK. there's people who would love to debate with you but you are too much of a coward to go there.


http://www.gametalk.com/talk/spirituality/page01.htm

[KingRaw!]

Your entire diatribe simply proves what a braindead useless lump of putrid shit you are. You are completely ignorant of medicine, completely ignorant of the basics of biology, and are claiming to be literally proud of the ability to kill innocent children. And then you wonder why you are lumped in with Hitler and PolPot.

Not once have you used facts or even logic to refute what I say. I say dehumanization is the same regardless of the excuse, and all you can do is stomp your feet in a childish tantrum saying "you bad bad man for saying such awful things!"

When one is reduced to saying "Na na na na naaa na!" then it is obvious their arguments have been reduced to zero validity. Seems to me a more accurate phrase for your post would be "wa wa wa wa waaa wa!"


Yeah, calling me a lump of putrid shit and telling me I'm worse than Hitler doesn't reduce your arguments to zero validity at all.....You did it first so Now you have to deal with a master troll. I began debating you in a civilized manner but you decided to act like Ann Coulter so you woke up a sleeping giant. Not even one rational word comes out of your childish, coward mouth. Just insults, which proves you know you're wrong. And if WaterMark is taking your side then he's an idiot. He doesn't have to take my side at all but defending a troll like you would be complete hypocrisy.

[Good Luck]

Yeah, calling me a lump of putrid shit and telling me I'm worse than Hitler doesn't reduce your arguments to zero validity at all.....You did it first so Now you have to deal with a master troll. I began debating you in a civilized manner but you decided to act like Ann Coulter so you woke up a sleeping giant. Not even one rational word comes out of your childish, coward mouth. Just insults, which proves you know you're wrong. And if WaterMark is taking your side then he's an idiot. He doesn't have to take my side at all but defending a troll like you would be complete hypocrisy.

You SAY you debate in a civilized manner? What a fucking laugh. From the start you have deliberately misrepresented everything I have stated. If that is your normal debate style, how is it different from the "awakened giant"? I stated my position very clearly more than once: that the pro-choice faction uses dehumanization to justify legal abortion. That is a truth you cannot refute. By your own words, the unborn are scientifically living humans, but IN YOUR OPINION are not "human enough" to be assigned human rights. You use opinion to dehumanize unborn children, and admit it.

I also point out that society has judged all prior uses of dehumanization of groups of living humans as unjust. That is also a fact you cannot refute. I gave examples of other times dehumanization was used as ustification to subjugate groups of humans. Yes, those examples include enslavement of blacks in America, and the mass killing of Jews in Nazi Germany. Those are also facts.

YOU are the one who decided to go off half cocked and equate those basic statements to some kind of personal attack. You did NOT choose to continue debate. You decided you were insulted, and your debate style dropped to the level of the average 3 year old.

And when someone goes off the deep end with "na na na naaa na" about where the law currently stands on an issue like abortion, then yes, I will describe them as lumps of putrid shit.

[KingRaw!]

I was wondering where you went. I thought you were bombing an abortion clinic due to us being nazis...


And when someone goes off the deep end with "na na na naaa na" about where the law currently stands on an issue like abortion, then yes, I will describe them as lumps of putrid shit.


And when someone says I'm worse than Hitler, I'm going to troll the shit out of them.

[Good Luck]

I was wondering where you went. I thought you were bombing an abortion clinic due to us being nazis...


And when someone goes off the deep end with "na na na naaa na" about where the law currently stands on an issue like abortion, then yes, I will describe them as lumps of putrid shit.


And when someone says I'm worse than Hitler, I'm going to troll the shit out of them.

Troll away. Like I said, it was your own deliberate misrepresentation of what I posted that started the nazi shit. Want to continue in your childish whiney vein, go right ahead. I'll be elsewhere debating issues.

[KingRaw!]

You are the one comparing pro-choicers to nazis and the KKK. You said it, not me. You did it before I began trolling you! But run off like most pro-lifers do when they make an ass of themselves.

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

And a woman who uses birth control is not voluntarily trying to get pregnant.

Hmm, in one hand I have "pregnancy" in the other I have "rape" ...let's take a look at the differences. Pregnancy results from a choice made to have sex, rape results from being the victim of a crime. In one case, the person in question has a clear and logical choice in their actions, in the other, she doesn't. One is the result of a choice made by the woman, the other is the result of a choice made by the perpetrator of a crime on the woman. So, we clearly see there is nothing remotely similar in comparing the two.

Don't hang out with "fishy" people. Don't get drunk at parties. Don't go in dangerous parts of town. It's just as dumb of an argument as "well, don't have sex at all." Yeah like that's going to happen derrrr

Well, small problem here... 99% of all rapes are not because someone was hanging out with fishy people or in a dangerous part of town. Getting drunk at a party and using the poor judgement to have sex, is not rape, although some rapes may occur this way. What you have presented is a bigoted and stereotypical view of women and rape, which says a lot about your character. In your mind, no rape is criminal, because the woman was obviously asking to be raped by her actions, that's how you believe. It's nice sounding "helpful hints" to not get raped, but what you have to say here is precisely what most rape victims are following when some asshole macho fuck like yourself, violated them physically and raped them against their will, wishes, or fantasies. I know that is hard for your machismo ass to understand, but try.

Also, I know you think you sound like some stud muffin to pop off about casual sex, but a lot of people in 2008 do don't share your promiscuous view at all, and don't think it's as cool as you seem to. But I do want to make this point, my position is not "anti sex" and I have never suggested people just stop having sex, although it is the best known way to avoid STD's and pregnancy. I am not the moral judge and I don't decide for other people, that is up to them, but with the CHOICE to have sex, comes a responsibility, and potential creation of a human life is one of them. With the introduction of AIDS, death has also become a potential consequence.

Yeah King, take off your gold chains and button up your purple silk shirt, and stop hitting on chicks half your age, the era of "free sex and love" is over, and you are so 1985!!

And you are trying to shove your stupid beliefs down societies throat by forcing women to ruin their lives and go into poverty and other children as well.

No, I am trying to support boundaries on indecent human behaviors, I think it's what makes me a human and not some wild monkey in a jungle. I would be completely happy with allowing communities to vote on abortion and decide what is right for their own community, and my earlier arguments for exceptions in cases of rape and risk of life, illustrate I am more than willing to allow moral viewpoints other than my own to be considered. Forcing women? No, I don't force women, that's your style dude. Women can make their own choice, I have no problem with that, but barbarism is not an option or choice any of us should be allowed, it's not a "right" we have as humans.

I'm the bigot for allowing a woman to choose whether or not to be miserable for the rest of her life but you aren't for trying to ban her from doing that? Yeah ok darsh! millions of children still need to be adopted and they probably never will. 127,000 in the US alone. AIDS, extreme poverty, overpopulation, bad economy, child abuse, child drug abuse etc are perfect reasons to support my nutjob views. What's your reason? A fetus is technically a human.

I don't know where you get your statistic from on children in need of adoption, but I personally know of several couples who have adopted children, and they had to wait... as in, on a waiting list for two or three years... as in, there weren't any children available to adopt. None of the things on your list are valid reasons for a human being denied the right to live, sorry, try again!

Oh, and by the way, a fetus is not just "technically" a human, it IS a human. Until you can provide some kind of evidence to the contrary, a human being is created at conception. It is biological fact, not a "technicality" at all. It is your denial of this fact, which enables your stupidity to flourish on this issue. It is why I earlier called you bigoted, because that is exactly what fuels bigotry, ignorant denial of facts.

[Jarod]

Because rape is a crime perpetrated on an innocent victim, who had no choice in whether or not they became impregnated, and were violated by a criminal. I believe in a woman's right to choose, although I don't believe in unlimited choice. They should be able to choose to engage in sexual activity which causes pregnancy. Once that decision is made, they shouldn't be allowed another choice to terminate the life resulting from the first choice.

Life of the Mother, again, it comes down to a woman's right to choose. In this case, she should be allowed to choose whether or not to risk her life to save another. Incidentally, many women make this very sacrifice every year, and up until the last century, it was quite common for a mother to die as a result of child birth.

Neither of these positions "magically change" a living fetus to anything other than what it is, a living human being. Nothing can "magically change" this, because it is biology. At point of conception, an independent living human organism results, and what it is, a human being, never changes.

Exceptions to allow the termination of human life, are made every day. We have exceptions for executions, self-defense, line of duty for police, justifiable homicide, and in some cases like Terri Schiavo, euthanasia. So, we have societal justifications for terminating human life, but these are exceptional circumstances, and the moral argument has to prevail when rationalizing these exceptions. Just as Ethnic Cleansing is not an appropriate justification for ending life, neither is Birth Control.

So not allowing abortion is a punishment to the girl who should never have consented to the sex and thus should be required to bare the burden, had she not consented that would be a different story?

[Damocles]

I can't see how the woman's choice in the pregnancy should make a difference in the value of the unborn child. Dixie, please explain that again. It makes no sense.

As for Jarod, I wouldn't call it a punishment, I would say that it is part of the accepted responsibility for deciding to use the reproductive organs as an amusement park. I wouldn't call the hard landing when the parachute fails a "punishment" for the skydiver. I wouldn't call pregnancy a "punishment" for somebody who is promiscuous.