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Thread: Taxation is immoral. I'll never think differently

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    Default Taxation is immoral. I'll never think differently

    and even if you want to argue society can't function without it (not proven), that still doesn't make it right. The south at one time couldn't function without slavery, neither could ancient rome or greece. In spite of that, slavery was still immoral. The "society can't function without it" is a bad argument when it comes to the morality of something.

    We have no way to opt out. And no smug liberals, even if you move to somalia, the U.S. will still lay claim to your labor and demand you pay your taxes even if you live abroad.

    We are slaves to the government. The state lays claim to our labor the way a feudal lord laid claim to the serfs land and some of the crops that resulted from it.

    Individuals should be allowed to OPT out. Police and fire can be paid as a fine if you ever need it. You can pay a car tax for roads. Anything not sustainable by the free market should be eliminated.

    FUCK TAXES I WILL NEVER CHANGE


    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    Grind is basically right
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantasmal View Post
    Grind’s got you beat by miles. He is very intelligent.

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    It is a hold over from the Feudal War Lords that want their fief.

    How do you pay for the 'Court System' that enforces the Laws?
    How do you pay for the 'Representation' (Congress) that you get?
    Who pays for the 'Main War Lord' that IS the Country?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FartCatcher View Post
    I'll never think
    I've disagreed with you so often...I thought I'd take the opportunity to agree with you on this occasion...about the above quoted part of your post title.

    I've certainly seen no evidence that you ever will...so I agree.

    Totally and with enthusiasm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FartCatcher View Post
    and even if you want to argue society can't function without it (not proven), that still doesn't make it right. The south at one time couldn't function without slavery, neither could ancient rome or greece. In spite of that, slavery was still immoral. The "society can't function without it" is a bad argument when it comes to the morality of something.

    We have no way to opt out. And no smug liberals, even if you move to somalia, the U.S. will still lay claim to your labor and demand you pay your taxes even if you live abroad.

    We are slaves to the government. The state lays claim to our labor the way a feudal lord laid claim to the serfs land and some of the crops that resulted from it.

    Individuals should be allowed to OPT out. Police and fire can be paid as a fine if you ever need it. You can pay a car tax for roads. Anything not sustainable by the free market should be eliminated.

    FUCK TAXES I WILL NEVER CHANGE
    You can opt out you ninny patted libertarian. Renounce your citizenship and get the fuck out of our country you free loading moocher.
    You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    It is a hold over from the Feudal War Lords that want their fief.

    How do you pay for the 'Court System' that enforces the Laws?
    How do you pay for the 'Representation' (Congress) that you get?
    Who pays for the 'Main War Lord' that IS the Country?

    How do you pay for the roads?
    How do you pay for utilities?
    How do you pay for education?
    How do you pay for fire departments?

    Grind is just whining about his pet political theory that doesn’t work, has never shown any evidence it can work, and can’t convince enough people it does work to get elected dog catcher so he’s having a temper tantrum in impotent rage. Emphasis on “impotent” as that’s the only word that accurately describes libertarianism.
    You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I've disagreed with you so often...I thought I'd take the opportunity to agree with you on this occasion...about the above quoted part of your post title.

    I've certainly seen no evidence that you ever will...so I agree.

    Totally and with enthusiasm.
    Burn!!!!
    You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    How do you pay for the roads?
    How do you pay for utilities?
    How do you pay for education?
    How do you pay for fire departments?

    Grind is just whining about his pet political theory that doesn’t work, has never shown any evidence it can work, and can’t convince enough people it does work to get elected dog catcher so he’s having a temper tantrum in impotent rage. Emphasis on “impotent” as that’s the only word that accurately describes libertarianism.
    I have a GREAT suggestion. Tell Grind NOT to pay his Property Tax. Then when the County sells his Property for NOT paying Taxes, and the NEW OWNER has the Sheriff evict Grind from his OWN HOUSE, tell Grind to 'resist arrest' so they have to shoot him 9 or 10 times. That should get Grind's mind right.

    You know, Mott. It's funny how people really think they own their 'Real Estate Property'. The fact is: You only 'own' your house as long as you pay 'a fief' (Property Tax) to the Local Lord (the County).

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    I have always been curious about this argument that taxes are immoral and should be abolished altogether. How would such a society work? How would you be able to protect the average citizen from being taken advantage of? Greed is also immoral, and an unfettered free market usually doesn't account for that. I am not here to change anyone's mind; I am just asking to see how that would work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FartCatcher View Post
    and even if you want to argue society can't function without it (not proven), that still doesn't make it right. The south at one time couldn't function without slavery, neither could ancient rome or greece. In spite of that, slavery was still immoral. The "society can't function without it" is a bad argument when it comes to the morality of something.

    We have no way to opt out. And no smug liberals, even if you move to somalia, the U.S. will still lay claim to your labor and demand you pay your taxes even if you live abroad.

    We are slaves to the government. The state lays claim to our labor the way a feudal lord laid claim to the serfs land and some of the crops that resulted from it.

    Individuals should be allowed to OPT out. Police and fire can be paid as a fine if you ever need it. You can pay a car tax for roads. Anything not sustainable by the free market should be eliminated.

    FUCK TAXES I WILL NEVER CHANGE
    Did you even bother to think this through? For instance, there's a rash of burglaries in your neighborhood. What are you and your neighbors going to do, hold a bake sale to raise enough money to buy a cop to investigate, look for evidence, and make an arrest? What then? Your rented cop arrests a suspect. Ruh roh, it's your teenage son. You guys going to start up a Gofundme to pay for his atty (since you're no longer paying for public defenders and courts), a judge, and to build a jail to safely hold him? I'm fairly sure that if your kid burglarized your neighbors, no one's going to want to pay for his defense and jail time.

    That's how it works in lawless, anarchist societies. The wealthy are protected by their personal guards and bribed judges. The rest of us are on our own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimée View Post
    I have always been curious about this argument that taxes are immoral and should be abolished altogether. How would such a society work? How would you be able to protect the average citizen from being taken advantage of? Greed is also immoral, and an unfettered free market usually doesn't account for that. I am not here to change anyone's mind; I am just asking to see how that would work.
    Remember FreedomForAll? He advocated this sort of thing as well. The problem with libertarianism and their anti-tax schemes is that even if it magically did come true, they'd spend every dime they have on fun stuff. Then when their house catches fire, there will be no $$ to pay firefighters to come rescue them, and put it out. You nailed it with the word "greed." That's what this is really all about.

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    Grind is wrong here. Taxes, or any payment for a service in kind, are not immoral if an agreement is made ahead of time and held to. In the case of the Federal government, that agreement is the Constitution, which defines the scope of the services to be provided. Therefore a tax rate commensurate with those defined services is not immoral.

    Grind is also correct here, because the Federal government has ignored the agreement and expanded its scope of services. So the excessive taxation to pay for these unauthorized scope is immoral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Remember FreedomForAll? He advocated this sort of thing as well. The problem with libertarianism and their anti-tax schemes is that even if it magically did come true, they'd spend every dime they have on fun stuff. Then when their house catches fire, there will be no $$ to pay firefighters to come rescue them, and put it out. You nailed it with the word "greed." That's what this is really all about.
    Yes, I do remember him! He actually considered himself to be an anarchist. He was a really nice guy who was willing to explain his ideology, but he had some strange ideas.

    Yes, there are some safety issues that come with espousing societies of this nature. Things like this never work out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul View Post
    Grind is wrong here. Taxes, or any payment for a service in kind, are not immoral if an agreement is made ahead of time and held to. In the case of the Federal government, that agreement is the Constitution, which defines the scope of the services to be provided. Therefore a tax rate commensurate with those defined services is not immoral.

    Grind is also correct here, because the Federal government has ignored the agreement and expanded its scope of services. So the excessive taxation to pay for these unauthorized scope is immoral.
    Yes, the constitution would be the contract by which the Federal Government provides those services to us citizens. I like your analogy of the agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul View Post
    Grind is wrong here. Taxes, or any payment for a service in kind, are not immoral if an agreement is made ahead of time and held to. In the case of the Federal government, that agreement is the Constitution, which defines the scope of the services to be provided. Therefore a tax rate commensurate with those defined services is not immoral.

    Grind is also correct here, because the Federal government has ignored the agreement and expanded its scope of services. So the excessive taxation to pay for these unauthorized scope is immoral.
    By scope of services do you mean things that the govt. does, or taxes?

    No data at hand, but I suspect that the majority of the taxes we all pay are state and local taxes rather than federal income taxes. Are those taxes also immoral in your POV?

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    listen op - I respect your views - unlike the views of most around here.

    the purpose of government is to protect the rights of the individual. I'm pretty sure you agree with that notion

    Have you considered the other angle however? It really does take groups of individuals to protect and preserve government. If you are so dogmatic about the true role of government that very few individuals are interested in protecting and preserving that form of government, you might as well be tilting at windmills.

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