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Thread: This month in History...

  1. #16 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    Maybe...but it certainly was audacious and risky. Not even Caesar anticipated the Senate panicking and leaving Rome. One has to wonder if Pompey had stayed in Rome and waited till he recieved reliable intelligence of Caesars disposition. Cause if he had he could have stomped his foot and put around a half a dozen legions in the field against Caesar and Caesar would have had to retreat back into Cisalpine Gaul and be branded an Enemy of the State (Hostis) or gone down to military defeat.

    There were several times during Caesar Civil War against the Senate where Caesar took huge risks, probably should have lost but improbably won. Crossing the Rubicon was one. The Battle of Dyrrhachium was another. Had Pompey had properly followed up on that victory against Caesar history would consider Pompey Rome's greatest General and First Emperor.

    Those were just two examples of where Caesar benefited greatly from pure dumb luck.
    I remain ambiguous about the legacy of Julius Caesar. I have heard more than a few academics claim Caesar is the most important and consequential person after Jesus of Nazareth to the arc of western history.

    I can see how the establishment of the Empire and the down fall of the Republic, for whatever downsides it had, basically set western civilization on its trajectory for the next two millennium.

    As for his strategic military abilities, it is interesting for you to note how much luck was involved. The conquest of Gaul can certainly be attributed as one of the most consequential events of Roman history. But history is always written by the victors, eh? Caesar was undoubtedly decisive and bold, but through the murky rear view of 2,000 years we can never be entirely certain of how much sheer blind luck and good fortune were involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Today’s Republicans aren’t the same as Republicans of the 1910’s and neither are today’s Democrats. Times definitely change.
    True, in some regards they have changed positions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    TR wasn't a moderate. He was a progressive and a reformer.
    He was a reformer as part of the progressive era, but he wasn't a progressive, he didn't directly employ the Gov't to effect change, that came under Wilson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    I think you're being a tad harsh on old Dutch. I think his most significant accomplishments were diplomatic. Say what you want to about Reagan but in the end he got shit done and executed the end game on the Soviet Empire. He didn't "Win the Cold War" as Conservatives with a small c claim but he made significant contributions to the end game and his largest contributions were diplomatic. He refused to take excuses from the State Department and ordered them to cooperate with their Soviet Counterparts to make things happen.
    I believe as the decades pass, Reagan's legacy is being tarnished as a more realistic view on his tenure occurs, and the mythology is deconstructed.

    I also think Jimmy Carter's legacy is looking incrementally better in hindsight.

    Reagan ran a criminal administration, that lied to congress, illegally funded a civil war, and covertly gave high tech American weapons to the Iranian mullahs.

    That is not even mentioning the damage Reagan did to the economy and the American middle class through union busting and trickedown economic schemes.

    You know one thing positive I can about Bedtime for Bonzo? He seemed to realize that Gorbechev was a different kind of Soviet leader, and Reagan seemed to have a genuine interest in working with Gorby to wind down the nuclear arms race. And I give him credit for that because I can remember most the rightwing wanted to continue the arms race, and they were mad at Reagan from compromising with Gorby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I remain ambiguous about the legacy of Julius Caesar. I have heard more than a few academics claim Caesar is the most important and consequential person after Jesus of Nazareth to the arc of western history.

    I can see how the establishment of the Empire and the down fall of the Republic, for whatever downsides it had, basically set western civilization on its trajectory for the next two millennium.

    As for his strategic military abilities, it is interesting for you to note how much luck was involved. The conquest of Gaul can certainly be attributed as one of the most consequential events of Roman history. But history is always written by the victors, eh? Caesar was undoubtedly decisive and bold, but through the murky rear view of 2,000 years we can never be entirely certain of how much sheer blind luck and good fortune were involved.
    Well that's just it. Caesar documented his accomplishments in commentaries, which were just as much political propaganda as they were dispatches from the war front. They have survived down through history to this day and have contributed greatly to his historical impact and legacy where as some of his contemporaries who's accomplishments were as significiant, take Sulla for example. His commentaries and autobiography did not survive antiquity and much of what we know about Sulla comes from secondary sources where as we have a great deal of primary source material on Caesar....who wrote most of it. LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I believe as the decades pass, Reagan's legacy is being tarnished as a more realistic view on his tenure occurs, and the mythology is deconstructed.

    I also think Jimmy Carter's legacy is looking incrementally better in hindsight.

    Reagan ran a criminal administration, that lied to congress, illegally funded a civil war, and covertly gave high tech American weapons to the Iranian mullahs.

    That is not even mentioning the damage Reagan did to the economy and the American middle class through union busting and trickedown economic schemes.

    You know one thing positive I can about Bedtime for Bonzo? He seemed to realize that Gorbechev was a different kind of Soviet leader, and Reagan seemed to have a genuine interest in working with Gorby to wind down the nuclear arms race. And I give him credit for that because I can remember most the rightwing wanted to continue the arms race, and they were mad at Reagan from compromising with Gorby.
    Which emphasized my point. Reagan was better at diplomacy than you are giving him credit for.

    I mean I agree on a lot of things. Much of what I hear people espouse about Carter and Reagan cause, as an old fucker, I remember their administrations and the events that led up to them and during them. There is much Carter deserves criticism for, his negativity, his inability to work with Congress, his tendency to micro-manage but there are things that he did quite well. Like righting the Ship of State after the unmittigated catastrophe that was the Nixon administration.

    Many of the problems that faced this nation during Carter's administration were a direct result of the cluster fuck Nixon created. When I hear young Republicans spout the Party catechism about Carter I usually chuckle and take glee in pointing out that almost everything they criticize Carter for was, factually, attributable to Nixon. Carter was the one who had to deal with the fall out. And for the most part he did so capably. His hiring Paul Voelker to head the Fed was an excellent move but it cost him dearly politically speaking.
    Last edited by Mott the Hoople; 01-18-2019 at 12:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    True, in some regards they have changed positions
    I can say that with certainty. The GOP of today is nothing like it was when I joined it back in the early 80's. It was far more moderate and far less working class back then.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    Today’s Republicans aren’t the same as Republicans of the 1910’s and neither are today’s Democrats. Times definitely change.
    I would say the moral compass of the 1850s/1910s/etc parties are still the deciding factor in how they turned-out here in 2019. The DNC would still secede over some outrageous/immoral cause, while the GOP would stand firm against it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    Maybe...but it certainly was audacious and risky. Not even Caesar anticipated the Senate panicking and leaving Rome. One has to wonder if Pompey had stayed in Rome and waited till he recieved reliable intelligence of Caesars disposition. Cause if he had he could have stomped his foot and put around a half a dozen legions in the field against Caesar and Caesar would have had to retreat back into Cisalpine Gaul and be branded an Enemy of the State (Hostis) or gone down to military defeat.

    There were several times during Caesar Civil War against the Senate where Caesar took huge risks, probably should have lost but improbably won. Crossing the Rubicon was one. The Battle of Dyrrhachium was another. Had Pompey had properly followed up on that victory against Caesar history would consider Pompey Rome's greatest General and First Emperor.

    Those were just two examples of where Caesar benefited greatly from pure dumb luck.
    Yeah, Pompey was the last thing standing between Caesar and Rome, and he screwed-up. Caesar is one of the luckier generals of all-time. The Roman saying, "may he be luckier than Augustus and better than Trajan" applies more to Julius than to Octavian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Threedee View Post
    Yeah, Pompey was the last thing standing between Caesar and Rome, and he screwed-up. Caesar is one of the luckier generals of all-time. The Roman saying, "may he be luckier than Augustus and better than Trajan" applies more to Julius than to Octavian.
    Well in the end Caesar was assisinated and Octavian did die an old man of natural causes. A rare form of death for a Roman Emperor. It also cast shade on Caesars criticism that Sulla didn’t know his political ABC’s. As Sulla accomplished about as much as Caesar and died an old man of natural causes too. Maybe Sulla was a tad more skilled than Caesar gave him credit for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Threedee View Post
    I would say the moral compass of the 1850s/1910s/etc parties are still the deciding factor in how they turned-out here in 2019. The DNC would still secede over some outrageous/immoral cause, while the GOP would stand firm against it.
    You need to spend some time in Texas son.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Ike and TR represented a moderate GOP who still had conservative principles, minus the social, cultural, or religious populism you see today in the GOP. They are pre Goldwater, and today would be RINOs
    Oh yeah, Goldwater. When he ran for president I was still a kid, yet aware of and interested in politics, filtered of course through a child's eye. I have a rather vivid memory of an anti-Goldwater TV commercial that had a video of an atomic bomb explosion and saying something about if he was elected that was our future. It wasn't until later -- much later -- that I realized that he actually was a man of great good sense even if I did not agree with his politics. This view is esp. poignant now, given the current state of the GOP and its leader.

    Some selected Goldwater quotes:

    "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." (1994)

    "Most Americans have no real understanding of the operations of the international moneylenders... the accounts of the Federal Reserve have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and... manipulates the credit of the United States " (1979)

    "Those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth. And let me remind you, they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyrannies. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed. " (1964)

    "You don't need to be 'straight' to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight." (1993)

    "I think every good Christian ought to kick Falwell right in the ass. " (1991)

    Source: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Barry_Goldwater

    Mr. Goldwater wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell of being elected under the (R) umbrella today... that's how far they've moved to the fascist dark side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    People will be getting Martin Luther King Day off without pay
    How sad that you think that's funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    How sad that you think that's funny.
    Not as sad as thinking your Ivory Tower Princess and her Jester Chuck give a shit about the people being affected. They are pandering to the hispanic voters. Let's see how their resolve holds up when those welfare checks don't go out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    Not as sad as thinking your Ivory Tower Princess and her Jester Chuck give a shit about the people being affected. They are pandering to the hispanic voters. Let's see how their resolve holds up when those welfare checks don't go out.
    I have no fucking clue who you are talking about here. Would you care to use some real names? Thanks.

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