He who is the author of a war lets loose the whole contagion of hell and opens a vein that bleeds a nation to death. Thomas Paine
Phantasmal (01-16-2019)
Hello Frank,
That's interesting.
The whole creator/overseer thing is simply not plausible to me.
Evolution is fact. It is clear that the links between animals and humans are overwhelming. We evolved from lower life forms. Life forms evolve in response to their surroundings. That cannot be plausibly denied. The physical evidence of this is overwhelming. That makes the story of creation false, and thus the entire Bible is to be doubted and not taken as fact (in my view.)
You are what I would call an agnostic. I thought of myself that way for a long time.
I lean that way, but only a minute bit. I have seen so little to support that there is any sort of sentient guidance to the cosmos, that I am 99.9% convinced there is none. But it can't be proved, so I leave room for doubt. The tiniest bit of it. For all essential purposes I am convinced there is no creator/overseer being or beings.
Although it was very interesting reading Van Daniken's 'Chariots Of The Gods.'
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
Oh...okay.
I was talking about today. Kudzu's comment seemed to be directed toward today. My response was worded to denote I was talking about today.
TODAY.
And...everything I have read or heard from Jews indicates that anyone born of a Jewish mother is a Jew. I have a Jewish nephew. His mother was a Jew...and he is a Jew. Period.
I do not give a fuck if it always has been the case or not.
Your comment...and my response were not about ancient history...or about mythology, Kudzu.
The comment you made that I took issue with was, "All three Abrahamic religions are about patriarchy."
My response was, "I don't think so, Kudzu. For Jews...and child of a Jewish MOTHER is a Jew. That is what defines Jews."
Obviously we are both talking about now. Your comment is in the PRESENT TENSE...and so are mine.
Okay.
I did not bring "the Bible" into this...and I really wish it hadn't been...but...Evolution is fact. It is clear that the links between animals and humans are overwhelming. We evolved from lower life forms. Life forms evolve in response to their surroundings. That cannot be plausibly denied. The physical evidence of this is overwhelming. That makes the story of creation false, and thus the entire Bible is to be doubted and not taken as fact (in my view.)
If the discussion is about whether any gods exist or not..."the Bible" has but one of the zillions of possibilities of gods.
That is narrowing it down way too much.
As far as the Bible is concerned, here is my take (for the third time this week) taken from a reply I gave to someone condemning homosexuality:
AS FOR THE BIBLE: My personal opinion is that the best guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a self-serving history of the early Hebrew people interspersed with a fanciful religious mythology. My opinion is that the best guess that can be made about the religious aspects of the Bible is that the people writing the material—the people inventing the god—put their prejudices into the mouth of the god they invented. Almost all of the anger, hatred, and prejudice against homosexuals today in our country has its genesis in the biblical mythology—and has absolutely no place in the hearts and minds of people supposedly as intelligent as we. It is my opinion that the unwarranted prejudice against homosexuals should end not because people are able to justify disregarding the more obviously silly ravings of what almost certainly is a mythical god…but because we, as an intelligent and basically fair species, should see such prejudice for the ignorance it is.
I used to call myself an agnostic...but then the conversations became about what is meant by "agnostic."You are what I would call an agnostic. I thought of myself that way for a long time.
Now I just describe my position rather than use a descriptor:
I do not know if gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...
...so I don't.
You are free to do that.I lean that way, but only a minute bit. I have seen so little to support that there is any sort of sentient guidance to the cosmos, that I am 99.9% convinced there is none. But it can't be proved, so I leave room for doubt. The tiniest bit of it. For all essential purposes I am convinced there is no creator/overseer being or beings.
My position is:
It is not possible to establish that at least one god exists using logic, reason, science, or math.
It is not possible to establish that it is more likely that at least one god exists than that no gods exist using logic, reason, science, or math.
It is not possible to establish that no gods exist using logic, reason, science, or math.
It is not possible to establish that it is more likely that no gods exist than that at least one god exists using logic, reason, science, or math.
Never read it.Although it was very interesting reading Van Daniken's 'Chariots Of The Gods.'
"2Timothy 3 "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away"
"2Timothy 3 "But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away"
Hello Frank,
Thanks for sharing your views on religion. Makes sense to me.
It is an examination of artifacts drawings and structures from antiquity which suggests humans have been visited in the past by beings from another world. There are cave drawings of what look like a man with a space helmet. There are massive signs dug/etched into the landscape which are really only visible from great altitude, suggesting markers for flying visitors to identify an approach. These markings/etchings/diggings were done long before humans learned to fly. These phenomena suggest that Earth has been visited in the past by beings from another world. The author, Van Daniken, muses that human religions may have been influenced by such visits, thought of these visitors as gods (which is inherently logical, given their level of technology) and that may have led to a belief that the gods are up above.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
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