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Thread: The most decisive battles of world history

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Certainly meets the criteria of a strategic victory.
    On a sidebar, my Canadian relative take pride in their successful defense against the American invasion of upper Canada.

    Another tangent - I believe the case can be made that one oversight in the list in Post #1 is the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century.

    It seems to me, that was not only a strategic outcome, but a historic one. One that we can still feel the effects of five centuries later. It was the ending of the last vestiges of the Eastern Roman Empire, and it created a permanent division at the Bosporus between Christian Europe and Muslim Asia; a geographic, cultural, and political division we are still feeling today.
    The topic is endless, what about the defeat of the Spanish Armada, Bosworth Field, the more you think about it, the more one can come up with, if your professor's aim was to get individuals thinking he accomplished his goal

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    Lincoln would have fled and trains only work when the tracks haven't been torn up. DC then wasn't DC today. Jubal Early got within 6 miles of the Capitol and chose to withdraw thinking DC was more heavily defended than it was.
    Yea and you can what if forever...it didn't happen. What did happen was Lee made catastrophically bad strategic decisions and lost the war for the Confederacy. The scenario that I speculated on, what if Joe Johnston had not been wounded at second Mannassas? Is a far more plausible scenario as his strategy has a far greater probability of suceeding than Lee's. However one of Johnston's serious failure as a command general, one shared by far to many command generals of the Civil War was he was lousy at the political aspects of war. This was a major reason why he was subordinated Robert E. Lee after he recovered from his wounds. He simply could not bring himself to get along with his political superiors. It's interesting to note that Jeff Davis had as much a problem with that as Lincoln did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Certainly meets the criteria of a strategic victory.
    On a sidebar, my Canadian relative take pride in their successful defense against the American invasion of upper Canada.

    Another tangent - I believe the case can be made that one oversight in the list in Post #1 is the Fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century.

    It seems to me, that was not only a strategic outcome, but a historic one. One that we can still feel the effects of five centuries later. It was the ending of the last vestiges of the Eastern Roman Empire, and it created a permanent division at the Bosporus between Christian Europe and Muslim Asia; a geographic, cultural, and political division we are still feeling today.
    LOL I can't give an informed opinion. Military History is a vast topic and my area of study has been mostly on The World Wars, The Wars of the Roman Republic, The American Civil War, The American Revolutionary War, The Mongol Wars and The American Frontier Wars. Of those I'm the most well read on the American Frontier Wars and the Wars of the Roman Republic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Yes, informative, you must have a Civil War interest
    I love studying history. Next to the life sciences it's my favorite academic subject. The American Civil War is fascinating to me as an American because you really can't understand what it means to be an American without studying that dreadful war.
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    The Michigan vs Ohio war for Toledo
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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Are you one of those kids who's pop planned vacations around battle sites?
    No, but I do know people who are far more learned than I am in history and political science than I am who have turned me on to a lot of great books over the years. The only Battlefield Site I've been to is Gettysburg and though I am probably the lest superstitious person you'd ever meet...I'm convinced that the place is indeed haunted. I can't put a finger on it other than during my entire visit I had this incredibly erie feeling that I wasn't alone and there was another person within site of me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    Yea and you can what if forever...it didn't happen. What did happen was Lee made catastrophically bad strategic decisions and lost the war for the Confederacy. The scenario that I speculated on, what if Joe Johnston had not been wounded at second Mannassas? Is a far more plausible scenario as his strategy has a far greater probability of suceeding than Lee's. However one of Johnston's serious failure as a command general, one shared by far to many command generals of the Civil War was he was lousy at the political aspects of war. This was a major reason why he was subordinated Robert E. Lee after he recovered from his wounds. He simply could not bring himself to get along with his political superiors. It's interesting to note that Jeff Davis had as much a problem with that as Lincoln did.

    Ha you just contradicted your whole position. Now you blame it on Lee when earlier you blamed it on losses in the west. Make up your mind instead of making it up as you go along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Margot Frank View Post
    The Michigan vs Ohio war for Toledo
    Yea...Ohio definitely lost that one....we got to keep Toledo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    Ha you just contradicted your whole position. Now you blame it on Lee when earlier you blamed it on losses in the west. Make up your mind instead of making it up as you go along.
    It's not a contradiction. Lee's draining the Confederate Armies in the west of men and material played a major role in the Confederate Western theater crumbling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    Yea...Ohio definitely lost that one....we got to keep Toledo.
    Hey I'm from Toledo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    It's not a contradiction. Lee's draining the Confederate Armies in the west of men and material played a major role in the Confederate Western theater crumbling.
    The Confederate 's were never going to beat Grant and Sherman and the midwest troops in the West!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    It's not a contradiction. Lee's draining the Confederate Armies in the west of men and material played a major role in the Confederate Western theater crumbling.
    The south could never have won. The North had 3 times as many people serving and one and a half times that many more who could have served. The South never had a realistic chance of winning. They could have, however, taken DC had they wanted to. IIRC one southern cavalry unit reached deep into DC and it freaked them out that they hadn't met resistance so they hauled ass fearing it was an ambush. Cannot recall if that was one of Early's or if it was JEB Stuart's that time. Been too many years since my military strategy of the Civil War class to remember every little color story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Margot Frank View Post
    The Confederate 's were never going to beat Grant and Sherman and the midwest troops in the West!
    They damned well came close to it at Shiloh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    The south could never have won. The North had 3 times as many people serving and one and a half times that many more who could have served. The South never had a realistic chance of winning. They could have, however, taken DC had they wanted to. IIRC one southern cavalry unit reached deep into DC and it freaked them out that they hadn't met resistance so they hauled ass fearing it was an ambush. Cannot recall if that was one of Early's or if it was JEB Stuart's that time. Been too many years since my military strategy of the Civil War class to remember every little color story.
    Please if you want to talk seriously about the Civil War ok but spare me the Lost Cause Mythologies. General Washington commanded against far greater odds than Lee faced and still won. The truth is, as evidenced by how close Lincoln came to losing the election of 1864, that the Confederacy came very close to winning. Had Atlanta not fallen when it did the likelihood that Lincoln would have lost re-election would have been high. McClelland had positioned himself under such conditions that he would have been forced to negotiate terms of peace with the Confederacy that would have required recognizing the Confederacy and then the Confederacy would have won the war on the political front. That came very close to happening because the Union had no such option. They had to conquer the Confederacy militarily. Which they did but the notion that the Confederacy had no chance of winning the Civil War just doesn’t jive with the facts. They came closer than many people appreciate.
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