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Thread: Alaska's Universal Basic Income, Supported By Liberals and Conservatives Under Attack

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    Quote Originally Posted by kudzu View Post
    You're right.. Palin killed the Exxon projects and increased the checks that year by $2,000... and she considers herself to be a conservative Republican.
    It was a one time payment of an extra $1,200.00 and the dividend formula resulted in a higher than usual base payment. It would have been a lot more the last couple years but the governor keeps obstructing the higher pay outs.

    As for whether or not Palin is or was a true scotsman, doesn't matter to me. I don't carry GOP water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    It was a one time payment of an extra $1,200.00 and the dividend formula resulted in a higher than usual base payment. It would have been a lot more the last couple years but the governor keeps obstructing the higher pay outs.

    As for whether or not Palin is or was a true scotsman, doesn't matter to me. I don't carry GOP water.
    You're right .. it was $1200. What do the facts have to do with carrying water for the GOP?
    He who is the author of a war lets loose the whole contagion of hell and opens a vein that bleeds a nation to death. Thomas Paine

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    Quote Originally Posted by kudzu View Post
    You're right .. it was $1200. What do the facts have to do with carrying water for the GOP?
    You were the one that injected whether or not she is a real conservative into the conversation. Either way. Alaska is not a cheap place to live unless you are an off-grid hunting, gathering granola eater. Their gas prices are running about 90 cents to a dollar higher than mine per gallon So whatever their government giveth back, mine never tooketh away.

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    Hello Kacper,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    So? Does not change that 1) The Alaskan checks are not a basic income and 2) Alaska is completely dependent on oil for those checks. Alaska has a very high cost of living. a couple grand a year isn't going to put a dent in that.
    Did you know that some Alaskans are so poor that their only income is the Permanent Fund Dividend, PFD?

    Some people live in such remote areas that money is not their biggest challenge in survival.

    For them, the PFD IS their only income, it is quite basic, and it is what they live on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    You were the one that injected whether or not she is a real conservative into the conversation. Either way. Alaska is not a cheap place to live unless you are an off-grid hunting, gathering granola eater. Their gas prices are running about 90 cents to a dollar higher than mine per gallon So whatever their government giveth back, mine never tooketh away.
    Everything is more expensive in remote areas. It is not the government taking away anything. It is the government providing a small universal basic income to everybody with no questions asked. Alaska has no sales tax, no income tax.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Flame on me, mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you go on my PERMANENT Ignore List. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I won't participate in your threads, you will be banned from mine. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: if you like my PIP, feel free to use it. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Everything is more expensive in remote areas. It is not the government taking away anything. It is the government providing a small universal basic income to everybody with no questions asked. Alaska has no sales tax, no income tax.
    LOL it is not a "a small universal basic income to everybody with no questions asked." Lots of questions are asked because it has eligibility requirements that not everyone meets. Felons get no free checky checky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    LOL it is not a "a small universal basic income to everybody with no questions asked." Lots of questions are asked because it has eligibility requirements that not everyone meets. Felons get no free checky checky.
    OK, I grant you that literal point.

    But seriously, the only questions are minimal to establish that the recipient is an Alaskan and has lived in the State for a year, which will ensure they are there for a winter. If they can stay through that, that's enough for 99.99% of recipients.

    This money is handed out from the State to almost everybody for doing nothing.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Flame on me, mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you go on my PERMANENT Ignore List. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I won't participate in your threads, you will be banned from mine. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: if you like my PIP, feel free to use it. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Kacper,,



    Well, some actually live on it,
    That and the proceeds they get from panhandling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    OK, I grant you that literal point.

    But seriously, the only questions are minimal to establish that the recipient is an Alaskan and has lived in the State for a year, which will ensure they are there for a winter. If they can stay through that, that's enough for 99.99% of recipients.

    This money is handed out from the State to almost everybody for doing nothing.
    Only 6 out of 7 Alaskans get checks, and their entire state population is smaller than my Congressional District's, so it isn't 99.9%. The requirements are more than you continue to represent and you still cannot answer the fundamental question----how will Alaska pay these checks without oil and gas revenue?

    Anyway, Finland is ending their little 2,000 person trial (which by the way was designed to cut social spending) and America's experiment with it in the 1970's showed precisely why it is a bad idea---instead of supplementing people's existing income, most of the recipients just decided to work less and remain just as poor as they had been before. ( This is link that will trigger an automatic PDF download from the boston fed. Don't click if you don't want that: https://www.bostonfed.org/-/media/Do...30/conf30b.pdf )

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    "How to Hand Out Free Money
    When the robots take our jobs, we’ll need another form of income. Alaska can show us the way."

    Mother Jones

    "For nearly four decades, the Permanent Fund Dividend (PFD) program, designed to share revenue from the state’s oil wealth, has made flat annual payouts to anyone who has lived there for at least one calendar year, barring those with certain criminal convictions. While the program’s architects didn’t use the term, it’s the closest thing today to a universal basic income program that has durably existed anywhere in the world.

    The concept of universal basic income—in which governments pay residents a set sum regularly, no strings attached—has gained momentum in recent years. A growing chorus of Silicon Valley executives has called the policy inevitable, as automation threatens to displace one-third of American workers by 2030, raising the specter of unemployed masses rioting in the streets. Others have revived the idea as an efficient solution to poverty and inequality. Y Combin*ator, the tech startup accelerator, will soon test basic income with 3,000 people in two states, following a smaller study in Oakland, California. The city of Stockton, California, will launch a guaranteed income pilot in 2019, and lawmakers in Hawaii and Chicago are considering following suit. Trials have also launched in Barcelona, Canada, Finland, Kenya, Uganda, and Switzerland. In the United States, the concept is inching its way into the mainstream; Hillary Clinton’s campaign memoir disclosed she seriously considered floating a universal basic income program called “Alaska for America” during her 2016 run."

    PoliTalker anti-troll thread thief disclaimer: If this thread is stolen, plagiarized, will the thief have the nerve to use the entire OP, word for word? Including this disclaimer? If you want my take on it, you'll have to post to this original PoliTalker thread. I refuse to be an enabler for online bullies, so I won't post to a stolen thread. I won't even read it. If you don't see me, PoliTalker, posting in this thread check the author. This might be a hijacked thread, not the original.

    Eventually, most jobs as we know them will be performed by robots. Artificial Intelligence is changing the way we work. This level of automation will dwarf anything seen in the past. And it will not generate more jobs than it eliminates. We are on the precipice of having a society where there are far more willing workers than jobs.

    As if we don't have that already. We can fool ourselves by claiming jobs are abundant and unemployment is low, but it is rarely wise to fool ourselves. Yes, jobs are abundant and unemployment is low, technically, but the unemployment figures count anybody working one hour per week as not unemployed. Nobody can live on one hour's pay unless they are CEO of a major corporation, so for millions of Americans, work and paychecks are not enough to live on. There is not enough work for everybody, and much of the work that is there doesn't pay enough to live on.

    And the situation is poised to become far worse.

    The need for government assistance is about to be amplified.

    Should we continue to pay lots of government workers to be part of a huge bureaucracy to decide who gets benefits and who doesn't?

    What if there was another way? That's a lot of money to run government agencies and pay people to enforce elaborate rules to decide who is needy and who isn't. It's a lot of overhead. It costs the taxpayers a lot of money just to try to figure out who gets what.

    What if we simply handed out the money instead?

    If we had a UBI, much of the government safety net could be dismantled.

    Who is going to pay for it all?

    The ultra rich. That's who.

    The ultra rich are far richer than most. Most people don't even have any idea how rich the super-rich are. But let me tell you. They are rich. Rich enough to cover this.

    And they are about to get a lot richer. Extreme wealth inequality is not going to stop. AI is going to launch it into the stratosphere. The only people who will be able to afford the fancy AI machines that will, not only do most jobs but also service and repair the new AI machines as well as design and build improves AI machines, will be the super-wealthy. Workers will not be able to own their own 'worker machine' that goes and does their job for them. No. It will not work that way. The super-wealthy will own those machines and they won't need workers any more. The 'job creator' nonsense will be blown out of the water. The AI race will be a race to eliminate jobs.

    Your job could be going away.

    And you might not be able to get another one.

    The very need for whatever you are trained for will be going away.

    And so will your paychecks.

    And revenue.

    We are going to have to raise taxes on the super-wealthy, and we are going to have to tax them enough to pay for the UBI.

    There's no other way to do it.

    Unless you have a better idea.
    What about we only start doing a universal basic income when the robots are actually taking away jobs? Unemployment is at 3.7% and there is a high demand for labor. The percent of the population employed is below the 90s and pre-recession levels, but it is recovering and still above the 80s and before (because of women entering working force), and we have a lot more older retired people.

    We can start with requiring employers to pay workers time and a half pay for all work past 40 hours. This will encourage them to hire more workers. We can also work to fill the 5 million jobs skills gap and no longer need to import skilled labor from other countries.

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    Alaska's infrastructure is totally dependent upon the mineral and oil extraction industries. Without those, there would be no money for highway repairs, grid maintenance, state employees' salaries (including law enforcement), environmental quality enforcement, etc. There is no state income or sales tax to pay for these things.

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    Hello anonymoose,

    Quote Originally Posted by anonymoose View Post
    That and the proceeds they get from panhandling.
    Panhandling or panning?
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska#Land_ownership


    According to an October 1998 report by the United States Bureau of Land Management, approximately 65% of Alaska is owned and managed by the U.S. federal government as public lands, including a multitude of national forests, national parks, and national wildlife refuges.

    it cracks me up that Rs love states where so much of the land is owned by the government

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    Hello Kacper,

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    Only 6 out of 7 Alaskans get checks, and their entire state population is smaller than my Congressional District's, so it isn't 99.9%.
    My figure is not substantiated. It was a guess. What is the source for your '6 out of 7' figure?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    The requirements are more than you continue to represent and you still cannot answer the fundamental question----how will Alaska pay these checks without oil and gas revenue?
    The plan would be paid for by taxing the ultra-wealthy more. And that won't be a problem going forward, because the growth of their wealth continues to exceed their usage of it, and will ultimately be so great, they will be the only source of wealth in the economy. Eventually, they will pretty much own everything. That is where the whole thing is headed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    Anyway, Finland is ending their little 2,000 person trial (which by the way was designed to cut social spending) and America's experiment with it in the 1970's showed precisely why it is a bad idea---instead of supplementing people's existing income, most of the recipients just decided to work less and remain just as poor as they had been before. ( This is link that will trigger an automatic PDF download from the boston fed. Don't click if you don't want that: https://www.bostonfed.org/-/media/Do...30/conf30b.pdf )
    If what I believe will happen comes true, the Universal Basic Income will be the only thing that keeps the economy alive. And I really can't envision a scenario where that will not happen. We are on the verge of building machines that can learn to do things. Not just machines that replace human workers. Machines that can figure out what work needs to be done, and learn how to do it. They will service themselves, design and build themselves. There won't be much new work for humans generated by the advent of these ultimately versatile machines.

    But there's a catch. These machines will be so expensive that only the super-rich and big corporations will be able to afford them. That means all of the profits they generate by displacing most workers will be going to the super-rich. That presents a huge problem for capitalist consumerism. Most would-be consumers will not have jobs or wealth with which to buy anything. These machines will work themselves out of a job by destroying the market they will initially be built to exploit. As they displace the expense of workers, they also eliminate customers for products.

    The only way for money to have much active circulation then will be for government to redistribute it. Like it or not. Some people will still have work, but most will not. There simply won't be any way for the economy to function without a UBI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evince View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska#Land_ownership


    According to an October 1998 report by the United States Bureau of Land Management, approximately 65% of Alaska is owned and managed by the U.S. federal government as public lands, including a multitude of national forests, national parks, and national wildlife refuges.

    it cracks me up that Rs love states where so much of the land is owned by the government
    There is a strong conservation side to the GOP. There was actually a bit of an environmentalist side too, but the Great Recession allowed corporations to exploit people's economic fears to turn them against it.

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