America's democratic roots - The Quaker Colony

[Cypress]

America's incipient democratic roots - The Quaker Colony of Pennsylvania

America's core ideals of democracy, fair trade, religious freedom, and social mobility first came together in the 1680s with the founding of William Penn's Quaker colony of Pennsylvania—"the best poor man's country in the world," praised one early visitor.

King Charles II of England granted to William Penn, a Quaker, all of the land west of the Delaware River in 1681. This fertile territory had long been in dispute among New York, Maryland, the Iroquois, the Delaware, the Dutch, and the Swedes. In his colony, Penn sought to establish religious tolerance, a just economy, and more peaceable relations between Europeans and native people.

Part of Pennsylvania’s success was due to Penn avoiding the three biggest mistakes of other colonies: religious intolerance, brutal treatment of laborers, and exploitation of the natives.

A. Although there were indentured servants in Pennsylvania, they were treated better and had more social mobility than in Virginia.
B. Pennsylvania was open to settlement by anyone who was willing to work, regardless of religious affiliation.
C. Penn bargained fairly with the Indians for both land and trade goods and welcomed refugee tribes into the colony.
D. Penn created an elected assembly for Pennsylvania, but the proprietor—Penn himself—maintained real control.

Pennsylvania, founded on Penn’s ideals of justice and tolerance, arguably became the model for the emerging American society.

source credit: Professor Robert J. Allison, Ph.D. Suffolk University

[Cypress]

American history prior to 1776 is usually glossed over. I do not remember a single high school or college history class that focused primarily on the history of the colonies before 1776.

In hindsight, the Quaker colony of Pennsylvania was undoubtedly a better model for a liberal, democratic society than the southern slave states, or the bible thumping Puritan states of the northeast.

My take away here is that fair treat of labor, fair treatment and tolerance of minorities, religious freedom, justice, and some attempts at representative government were the lessons the Quaker colony taught the colonial Americans.

And luckily, over the long term, those values held sway over, and proved morally superior too, the oligarchies, feudal systems, and slave economies of the American south.

[Celticguy]

Democracy (textbook style) is common in limited size situations. But its impossible in large societies.
Founders knew this and wrote the constitution accordingly.

[Cypress]

Democracy (textbook style) is common in limited size situations. But its impossible in large societies.
Founders knew this and wrote the constitution accordingly.

^^^ Ignores very indispensable context and very consequential historical facts.

The framers of the Constitution lived in the 18th century.

The states - by overwhelming vote and acclaim - have repeatedly modified the constitution in the decades and centuries since 1789 to make our nation more democratic, and have repeatedly chosen - overwhelmingly - to adopt ever more democratic institutions. They have repeatedly chosen - overwhelmingly - to expand the franchise to previously disenfranchised people.

All those modifications, updates, and alterations were as allowed for by the Constitution.

The 21st century general public is vastly more educated and informed than the general public of the 11th, 15th, or 18th centuries. Public education is now universal, and literacy is universal. These are conditions the founders were not dealing with, and facts they were unaware would unfold. Apples and oranges. An informed and educated society is entitled to a democracy and to directly choose representation. Aristocrats and landed gentry are no longer the only ones capable of reading and writing.

[Celticguy]

^^^ Ignores very indispensable context and very consequential historical facts.

The framers of the Constitution lived in the 18th century.

The states - by overwhelming vote and acclaim - have repeatedly modified the constitution in the decades and centuries since 1789 to make our nation more democratic, and have repeatedly chosen - overwhelmingly - to adopt ever more democratic institutions. They have repeatedly chosen - overwhelmingly - to expand the franchise to previously disenfranchised people.

All those modifications, updates, and alterations were as allowed for by the Constitution.

The 21st century general public is vastly more educated and informed than the general public of the 11th, 15th, or 18th centuries. Public education is now universal, and literacy is universal. These are conditions the founders were not dealing with, and facts they were unaware would unfold. Apples and oranges. An informed and educated society is entitled to a democracy and to directly choose representation. Aristocrats and landed gentry are no longer the only ones capable of reading and writing.

And none of them altered the basic construct of representative republic.

[Cypress]

And none of them altered the basic construct of representative republic.

^^^ I don't know what that means. You wrote a slogan without any context, any evidence, and articulation.

A representative democracy is a type of democracy.

The bottom line is this: You can't just keep yelling "But the founders.....!"

The framers of the Constitution were not supermen who knew what the best form of government was for all time.

You cannot remove them from their historical context. They were slave owners who did not believe that women or minorities were equal in any way to property owning white men.

But there were far-sighted enough to leave us with a system that was fairly radical by 18th century standards, and which we (the states) have repeatedly modified to make ever more democratic. I guarantee you that the founders would agog, utterly shocked, at the democracy we have evolved into by the 21st century.

And you can say this about the founders: they framed a Constitution that they knew would allow future generation to modify to make their government fit their times and their historical context.

[Celticguy]

^^^ I don't know what that means. You wrote a slogan without any context, any evidence, and articulation.

A representative democracy is a type of democracy.

The bottom line is this: You can't just keep yelling "But the founders.....!"

The framers of the Constitution were not supermen who knew what the best form of government was for all time.

You cannot remove them from their historical context. They were slave owners who did not believe that women or minorities were equal in any way to property owning white men.

But there were far-sighted enough to leave us with a system that was fairly radical by 18th century standards, and which we (the states) have repeatedly modified to make ever more democratic. I guarantee you that the founders would agog, utterly shocked, at the democracy we have evolved into by the 21st century.

And you can say this about the founders: they framed a Constitution that they knew would allow future generation to modify to make their government fit their times and their historical context.

So why do you fret about the electiral College if you understand representative ?

[Cypress]

So why do you fret about the electiral College if you understand representative ?

It a system that can be improved, made better made more democratic.

Anyone even remotely familiar with American history and the history of western liberal democracy is aware that democracy is always evolving, improving, or changing to generally become more representative and more democratic.

I really do not believe you can plausibly make the case that representative government was perfected for all time in 1789 by slave holding white men -- unless you are the type of person willing to indulge in abject dishonesty.

[Celticguy]

It a system that can be improved, made better made more democratic.

Anyone even remotely familiar with American history and the history of western liberal democracy is aware that democracy is always evolving, improving, or changing to generally become more representative and more democratic.

I really do not believe you can plausibly make the case that representative government was perfected for all time in 1789 by slave holding white men -- unless you are the type of person willing to indulge in abject dishonesty.

What evolution ? Only thing you mention is expanding the voter rolls, nothing to alter the structure.

[Cypress]

What evolution ? Only thing you mention is expanding the voter rolls, nothing to alter the structure.

No point having a conversation with a poster who claims they are unaware that American and western liberal democracy has evolved in any substantive way in the last two centuries.

[Celticguy]

No point having a conversation with a poster who claims they are unaware that American and western liberal democracy has evolved in any substantive way in the last two centuries.

No point in wasting time on someone who cant address a counter.

[Cypress]

No point in wasting time on someone who cant address a counter.

For you, I recommend remedial middle school American history.

Other than you, I literally cannot think of ever running across someone who believes our nation's government has not changed substantially since 1789, believes some slave owning white men perfected government for all time in 1789, and is unaware of the substantial evolution of our democracy, our democratic institutions, and of the sovereignty of the people over the last two centuries.

If you are asking obscure people on the internet to explain it to you, count me out. I suggest visiting your nearest middle school and asking if you can audit one of their American history classes.

[Celticguy]

For you, I recommend remedial middle school American history.

Other than you, I literally cannot think of ever running across someone who believes our nation's government has not changed substantially since 1789, believes some slave owning white men perfected government for all time in 1789, and is unaware of the substantial evolution of our democracy, our democratic institutions, and of the sovereignty of the people over the last two centuries.

If you are asking obscure people on the internet to explain it to you, count me out. I suggest visiting your nearest middle school and asking if you can audit one of their American history classes.

Still got nothing. Ill act surprised.

[Cypress]

In contrast to the monosyllabic grunts of obscure message board posters, here is a contribution from an erudite scholar.

"In their rational, secular, worldly approach to life, in their commitment to political freedom, and to the autonomous importance of the individual in a constitutional republican and democratic public life, the Athenians of Pericles day were closer to the dominant ideas and values of our own era than any culture that has appeared to the world since antiquity."

Donald Kagan, PhD., Professor of Classical History, Yale University