There Is Simply Not Enough Revenue. The Deficit Is Too Large. Debt Is Out Of Control.

[Frank Apisa]

Hello Frank,



I wouldn't expect you to instantly change your habits or instantly admit that you should. That takes time and desire. I was hoping to get you to consider that the justification used for these habits is possibly flawed. And I also would not expect you to quickly admit that either or express thanks for me pointing it out. And maybe you will never decide to change. That has to come from you, of course. I do hope that others who are reading this more objectively will recognize that I have a point. What you do with it is up to you. I'm not trying to be mean. Just making an observation.

I wonder. Would you be participating in this thread if I had begun it in APP?

That could be quite problematic.

Maybe the next time I come up with a popular thread it will be in APP.

If so, I wouldn't take anybody off Ignore, nor respond to them, but I might consider using no ban list.

Do whatever you want, Poli.

I think you are completely full of shit on your assessment of what is happening here...but you have that right.

You have a tendency to think your considerations are above reproach.

I disagree with your thoughts on that.

[PoliTalker]

Hello distraff,

Thanks for the welcome. Cutting the deficit in any way by 700 billion in one year would cause a recession. Its better to slowly scale back over time. Maybe cut 50 billion per year. Its a good time to do it, we have a high deficit, and the economy is good. Cutting the deficit will slow economic growth in the short-term but it pays to have less debt in the long term.

We certainly agree the deficit is too high. There are two ways to reduce it. More revenue or less spending. Cutting spending is very difficult. If it were easy it would have been done already. Even with both legislative houses and the executive in control of Republicans, they were unable to do it.

The economy was doing very well when Trump took office. There was no need for a tax cut. The tax cut has produced a problem. Not enough revenue. The CBO predicted exactly that. Now it has come true. the solution is obviously to tax the rich more. That will generate more revenue and cut the deficit. There was no recession before the tax cut when we taxed the rich more. Taxing them more now will not cause a recession. It is what we need to do. We need more revenue.

[PoliTalker]

Do whatever you want, Poli.

I think you are completely full of shit on your assessment of what is happening here...but you have that right.

You have a tendency to think your considerations are above reproach.

I disagree with your thoughts on that.

Did I miss a nasty post by Gunny2009?

[Gunny2009]

Actually, Clinton and Obama were both very fiscally responsible.

Perhaps we have different views on what is fiscally responsible.

I cannot praise Obama for getting the deficit "down" to a mere half a trillion dollars for two short years of his 8

In my household it is not deemed fiscally responsible to spend more than you make except in the case of an emergency and for a short time period.

Clinton did well, he knew how to work with the other party, that was his biggest strength.

[Heff]

Hello Heff,



What a ridiculous comparison. None of those other Presidents besides President Obama had to deal with The Great Recession. The Great Recession was the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. Any economist will tell you a recession runs the debt up. We were VERY LUCKY President Obama guided us through that with the stimulus (which worked - the economy has recovered!) Nobody wanted to spend more at a time when we already had so much spending to support the safety net, and also suffered reduced revenue because of all the unemployment. But that was what we had to do to create more jobs. And it worked.

Another way to look at the deficit is the amount of it each year, which got lower and lower as the economy recovered under President Obama's careful guidance. The CBO predicted there would be insufficient revenue with the Trump tax cut for the rich, and that is exactly what we are seeing. Republicans claimed the growing economy would generate more than enough revenue to supplant that which was lost by reduced tax rates for the rich, BUT THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED.

I wasn't making a comparison. I was just showing that your statement that "It [the corporate tax rate] actually worked quite well. Up until Trump the deficit was more under control." was demonstrably false and ridiculous.

[Frank Apisa]

Did I miss a nasty post by Gunny2009?

If I were advising you, Poli, I would suggest that this might be a good time to end this conversation with me.

Maybe somewhere else...some other time...starting from some other point would be better.

But...you should do what you feel best...what you feel will lead to where you want to go.

I promise to keep my promise.

[Fentoine Lum]

I wasn't making a comparison. I was just showing that your statement that "It [the corporate tax rate] actually worked quite well. Up until Trump the deficit was more under control." was demonstrably false and ridiculous.

What was the tax rate and societal programs situation in the era the MAGA folk want to go back to?

[PoliTalker]

Hello Heff,

I wasn't making a comparison. I was just showing that your statement that "It [the corporate tax rate] actually worked quite well. Up until Trump the deficit was more under control." was demonstrably false and ridiculous.

True. Taxes on the rich and on corporations were not high enough. If we just taxed them more we could balance the budget.

[Heff]

What was the tax rate and societal programs situation in the era the MAGA folk want to go back to?

Would you mind rephrasing the question into something I could understand?

[PoliTalker]

Hello Frank,

If I were advising you, Poli, I would suggest that this might be a good time to end this conversation with me.

Maybe somewhere else...some other time...starting from some other point would be better.

But...you should do what you feel best...what you feel will lead to where you want to go.

I promise to keep my promise.

No problem. Sometimes when a lot has been said it is good to stop and reflect on what has been said.

[distraff]

Hello distraff,



We certainly agree the deficit is too high. There are two ways to reduce it. More revenue or less spending. Cutting spending is very difficult. If it were easy it would have been done already. Even with both legislative houses and the executive in control of Republicans, they were unable to do it.

The economy was doing very well when Trump took office. There was no need for a tax cut. The tax cut has produced a problem. Not enough revenue. The CBO predicted exactly that. Now it has come true. the solution is obviously to tax the rich more. That will generate more revenue and cut the deficit. There was no recession before the tax cut when we taxed the rich more. Taxing them more now will not cause a recession. It is what we need to do. We need more revenue.

The problem with your plan is that we will eternally be raising taxes because spending keeps increasing. Our spending is out of control and is increasing a lot faster than the economy is. We need to control it, or its going to bankrupt our nation. I know there is little political room to do this today, so that is why its important for you to vote for representatives who want to control spending.

What I think we should do is that conservatives can get their welfare spending cuts, and liberals get their military spending cuts and tax increases on the wealthy. Its a fair deal, but if both parties can't cut a good deal, then we are going to bankrupt our nation.

[PoliTalker]

Hello Fentoine Lum,

What was the tax rate and societal programs situation in the era the MAGA folk want to go back to?

Great point. But. That kind of discussion rarely gets attention inside the Trump Bubble.

[PoliTalker]

Hello distraff,

The problem with your plan is that we will eternally be raising taxes because spending keeps increasing.

That shouldn't be a problem because the wealth of the rich is rising accordingly to the need for increased taxes on them. And that makes sense, because the rich are pocketing the ever-increasing profits of the capitalism which is causing the need for more social spending and the subsequent rise in government spending to keep up with that.

Our spending is out of control [wrong] and is increasing a lot faster than the economy is. [please show evidence to back this up?] We need to control it, or its going to bankrupt our nation.

All government spending is already controlled by Congress. That is our system. If we disagree with the spending we can always vote for a more fiscally responsible Congress. Instead, we tend to vote on emotional issues like gun control and abortion access.

I know there is little political room to do this today, so that is why its important for you to vote for representatives who want to control spending.

Go for it. Vote for them. That is your right. I will be voting for the ones who say we need to tax the rich more.

What I think we should do is that conservatives can get their welfare spending cuts, and liberals get their military spending cuts and tax increases on the wealthy. Its a fair deal, but if both parties can't cut a good deal, then we are going to bankrupt our nation.

Sounds like a possible compromise. I hope our representatives work on something like that. If so, I will happily be communicating my views to my representative, as I hope you will be also doing. That's how our government is designed to work. Would be nice to see it in action and answering to the people for a change.

[Frank Apisa]

If things go the way I think they are going to go...

...with fewer jobs for humans (and more for machines)...and less pay for the jobs humans have to do...

...there will have to be massive INCREASES in safety net programs...especially the ones that fall under the "welfare" label so despised by many.

That is why I say a significant psychological adjustment will have to be made to make the transition (that "will" rather than "might") come in a peaceful way.

Otherwise it is going to be another France during the late 18th century and Russia during the early 20th century "solution."

(Seems like France may be making moves in that direction again right now.)

[distraff]

Hello distraff,



That shouldn't be a problem because the wealth of the rich is rising accordingly to the need for increased taxes on them. And that makes sense, because the rich are pocketing the ever-increasing profits of the capitalism which is causing the need for more social spending and the subsequent rise in government spending to keep up with that.



All government spending is already controlled by Congress. That is our system. If we disagree with the spending we can always vote for a more fiscally responsible Congress. Instead, we tend to vote on emotional issues like gun control and abortion access.



Go for it. Vote for them. That is your right. I will be voting for the ones who say we need to tax the rich more.



Sounds like a possible compromise. I hope our representatives work on something like that. If so, I will happily be communicating my views to my representative, as I hope you will be also doing. That's how our government is designed to work. Would be nice to see it in action and answering to the people for a change.

I agree that we can increase taxes on the rich, and they can afford to pay more. But you don't get that many tax increases for the rich out of conservatives in congress. Plus, the deficit is going to be 1 trillion in a year and go past 1.5 trillion in a few years. There is just no way we can tax the rich enough to generate enough revenue to fill that gap, or get enough support among Republicans and moderate democrats in red states to pass that.

The reality is that spending cuts are needed to close the deficit, and yes, we should definitely vote for a more fiscally responsible congress. Unfortunately history has taught as that spending goes up, taxes go up, debt goes job, and regulations go up. At the same time economic growth fall and jobs growth declines.