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Thread: Apocalypse Tuesday

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    Default Apocalypse Tuesday

    Next Tuesday the UK House of Commons will vote on the withdrawal agreement negotiated with the EU by the Prime Minister. The terms of the proposed agreement have antagonized nearly everybody, Remainers and Leavers alike. This is what Charles Moore, former editor of the Daily Telegraph, says about it:


    One of the reasons the EU exists, I think, is that European elites have never fully accepted what universal suffrage means. Few dare flatly oppose the right of every adult to vote, but many powerful people fear its consequences. In countries like France, where the conflicting urges for violent revolution and reactionary repression have always been dangerously strong, there lurks a permanent fear of the mob and a permanent mob ready to turn nasty. We have seen both these phenomena there this very week. To the elites in such a country, the EU is a godsend. It lets people vote, but strictly on the understanding that their vote cannot seriously impede the Union’s destiny, which is safe in the hands of unelected political bureaucrats.

    In the Anglo-Saxon tradition – in Britain, the United States, Australia – the vote is primary. It doesn’t just register a view: it decides. It makes the legislature legitimate. This difference helps explain why, in 1940, some French government ministers ran away – and some stayed to do a deal with Nazi Germany – but the British government rallied in the House of Commons.

    So if the House of Commons now wishes to frustrate the referendum result, it needs to understand that it is breaking the compact upon which its own existence depends ... How can even the most ardent Remainer imagine that trust in Parliament can survive such behaviour? In the 17th century, Parliament fought the Crown and won important freedoms. Is it proposing, in the 21st century, to reverse this, and fight the people?

    <snip>

    The Prime Minister has tried hard to get her deal, but her efforts are fatally flawed because we cannot get out of the backstop – and therefore of the customs union – unless the EU lets us. That is an almost satirical repackaging of the EU problem as if it were the solution. One might laugh, or cry: one cannot vote for it and respect the referendum result at the same time. Only if Mrs May can close the backstop trap – and not just make pious promises that it won’t be used – could her deal scrape through.

    Her reaction to her difficulty is to intensify government warnings about “no deal”, thus exposing her own government for leaving everything so late. “No deal” is a form of true Brexit, and very likely, after Mrs May’s mistakes, the only one available. This weekend, she is sending out ministers to preach to the public. The public should hit back, writing politely to their MPs to remind them that they made a contract with us in 2016, and now they must honour it.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...rs-ever-trust/

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    In countries like France, where the conflicting urges for violent revolution and reactionary repression have always been dangerously strong, there lurks a permanent fear of the mob and a permanent mob ready to turn nasty. We have seen both these phenomena there this very week. To the elites in such a country, the EU is a godsend. It lets people vote, but strictly on the understanding that their vote cannot seriously impede the Union’s destiny, which is safe in the hands of unelected political bureaucrats.
    Globalism
    "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man."
    — Joe Biden on Obama.

    Socialism is just the modern word for monarchy.

    D.C. has become a Guild System with an hierarchy and line of accession much like the Royal Court or priestly classes.

    Private citizens are perfectly able of doing a better job without "apprenticing".

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    You could always have another Vote ... and hope it turns out different. (?)


    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquillus in Exile View Post
    Next Tuesday the UK House of Commons will vote on the withdrawal agreement negotiated with the EU by the Prime Minister. The terms of the proposed agreement have antagonized nearly everybody, Remainers and Leavers alike. This is what Charles Moore, former editor of the Daily Telegraph, says about it:


    One of the reasons the EU exists, I think, is that European elites have never fully accepted what universal suffrage means. Few dare flatly oppose the right of every adult to vote, but many powerful people fear its consequences. In countries like France, where the conflicting urges for violent revolution and reactionary repression have always been dangerously strong, there lurks a permanent fear of the mob and a permanent mob ready to turn nasty. We have seen both these phenomena there this very week. To the elites in such a country, the EU is a godsend. It lets people vote, but strictly on the understanding that their vote cannot seriously impede the Union’s destiny, which is safe in the hands of unelected political bureaucrats.

    In the Anglo-Saxon tradition – in Britain, the United States, Australia – the vote is primary. It doesn’t just register a view: it decides. It makes the legislature legitimate. This difference helps explain why, in 1940, some French government ministers ran away – and some stayed to do a deal with Nazi Germany – but the British government rallied in the House of Commons.

    So if the House of Commons now wishes to frustrate the referendum result, it needs to understand that it is breaking the compact upon which its own existence depends ... How can even the most ardent Remainer imagine that trust in Parliament can survive such behaviour? In the 17th century, Parliament fought the Crown and won important freedoms. Is it proposing, in the 21st century, to reverse this, and fight the people?

    <snip>

    The Prime Minister has tried hard to get her deal, but her efforts are fatally flawed because we cannot get out of the backstop – and therefore of the customs union – unless the EU lets us. That is an almost satirical repackaging of the EU problem as if it were the solution. One might laugh, or cry: one cannot vote for it and respect the referendum result at the same time. Only if Mrs May can close the backstop trap – and not just make pious promises that it won’t be used – could her deal scrape through.

    Her reaction to her difficulty is to intensify government warnings about “no deal”, thus exposing her own government for leaving everything so late. “No deal” is a form of true Brexit, and very likely, after Mrs May’s mistakes, the only one available. This weekend, she is sending out ministers to preach to the public. The public should hit back, writing politely to their MPs to remind them that they made a contract with us in 2016, and now they must honour it.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...rs-ever-trust/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    You could always have another Vote ... and hope it turns out different. (?)
    IIRC, the EU's proposed agreement still keeps the Brit's under their thumb. It's a toothless brexit deal that is going to be voted on. In a way, ... a second vote, ... a second referendum.
    "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man."
    — Joe Biden on Obama.

    Socialism is just the modern word for monarchy.

    D.C. has become a Guild System with an hierarchy and line of accession much like the Royal Court or priestly classes.

    Private citizens are perfectly able of doing a better job without "apprenticing".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    You could always have another Vote ... and hope it turns out different. (?)
    It's standard EU practice in such cases to have another referendum, and another if necessary, until the people give the approved answer. Then it's final.

    But a two-thirds majority of the Commons would be required to call a second referendum, and I doubt if that would be forthcoming.

    We'll have to see what happens if Mrs May's deal goes down the tubes on Tuesday. Interesting times ...


    Correction
    A second referendum would require an Act of Parliament but not a super-majority. However, the only people who want one are hardline Remainers who believe that staying in the EU (almost certainly on worse terms than before) is worth permanently alienating half the nation. They have taken to calling it a "People's Vote". I guess the first one, in 2016, was an Aardvark's Vote.
    Last edited by Tranquillus in Exile; 12-09-2018 at 04:16 AM.

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    They haven't made with the Brexiting yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    You could always have another Vote ... and hope it turns out different. (?)
    EU brought unwanted diversity to the UK, and the UK voters rejected that in the Brexit vote. What make you think the UK voters have changed their mind?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hvilleherb View Post
    EU brought unwanted diversity to the UK, and the UK voters rejected that in the Brexit vote. What make you think the UK voters have changed their mind?
    If that is the main concern, maybe they could address that single issue rather than exit the EU?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    If that is the main concern, maybe they could address that single issue rather than exit the EU?
    I think the main concern is that power is being removed further and further from the people. Everything else follows from that. It's what the EU is designed to do - the 'Project', ever-closer union - and it's been going on for 20+ years.

    Where does the power go? To the EU bureaucracy, tempered by the two (formerly three) strongest nations. As for the rest, see what happened to Greece.

    A problem that may break the EU sooner or later is the economic disparity between north and south, shackled by a common currency (which Britain never belonged to). A common exchange rate is great for Germany, tolerable for France, and slow strangulation for Italy, Spain etc.

    On the plus side, there hasn't been another war between France and Germany, which the Project was intended to prevent. There also hasn't been another Mongol invasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdog View Post
    Globalism
    Globalism = "capitalism".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquillus in Exile View Post
    I think the main concern is that power is being removed further and further from the people. Everything else follows from that. It's what the EU is designed to do - the 'Project', ever-closer union - and it's been going on for 20+ years.
    Same here in the US. Goes back to the early 1970s.

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    The Brit government has just been found to be in contempt of its own parliament. Continuing with Brexit would be contemptuous of the sea-change in British public opinion.
    " First they came for the journalists...
    We don't know what happened after that . "

    Maria Ressa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquillus in Exile View Post
    Next Tuesday the UK House of Commons will vote on the withdrawal agreement negotiated with the EU by the Prime Minister. The terms of the proposed agreement have antagonized nearly everybody, Remainers and Leavers alike. This is what Charles Moore, former editor of the Daily Telegraph, says about it:


    One of the reasons the EU exists, I think, is that European elites have never fully accepted what universal suffrage means. Few dare flatly oppose the right of every adult to vote, but many powerful people fear its consequences. In countries like France, where the conflicting urges for violent revolution and reactionary repression have always been dangerously strong, there lurks a permanent fear of the mob and a permanent mob ready to turn nasty. We have seen both these phenomena there this very week. To the elites in such a country, the EU is a godsend. It lets people vote, but strictly on the understanding that their vote cannot seriously impede the Union’s destiny, which is safe in the hands of unelected political bureaucrats.

    In the Anglo-Saxon tradition – in Britain, the United States, Australia – the vote is primary. It doesn’t just register a view: it decides. It makes the legislature legitimate. This difference helps explain why, in 1940, some French government ministers ran away – and some stayed to do a deal with Nazi Germany – but the British government rallied in the House of Commons.

    So if the House of Commons now wishes to frustrate the referendum result, it needs to understand that it is breaking the compact upon which its own existence depends ... How can even the most ardent Remainer imagine that trust in Parliament can survive such behaviour? In the 17th century, Parliament fought the Crown and won important freedoms. Is it proposing, in the 21st century, to reverse this, and fight the people?

    <snip>

    The Prime Minister has tried hard to get her deal, but her efforts are fatally flawed because we cannot get out of the backstop – and therefore of the customs union – unless the EU lets us. That is an almost satirical repackaging of the EU problem as if it were the solution. One might laugh, or cry: one cannot vote for it and respect the referendum result at the same time. Only if Mrs May can close the backstop trap – and not just make pious promises that it won’t be used – could her deal scrape through.

    Her reaction to her difficulty is to intensify government warnings about “no deal”, thus exposing her own government for leaving everything so late. “No deal” is a form of true Brexit, and very likely, after Mrs May’s mistakes, the only one available. This weekend, she is sending out ministers to preach to the public. The public should hit back, writing politely to their MPs to remind them that they made a contract with us in 2016, and now they must honour it.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...rs-ever-trust/
    SEDITION: incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority.


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    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    Continuing with Brexit would be contemptuous of the sea-change in British public opinion.
    The latest opinion poll I can find is dated December 6, 2018:
    https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...ould-you-vote/

    "If there was another referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, how would you vote?"

    Remain 36%
    Leave 33%
    Undecided 31%

    With so many undecided, it's too close to call.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquillus in Exile View Post
    I think the main concern is that power is being removed further and further from the people. Everything else follows from that. It's what the EU is designed to do - the 'Project', ever-closer union - and it's been going on for 20+ years.

    Where does the power go? To the EU bureaucracy, tempered by the two (formerly three) strongest nations. As for the rest, see what happened to Greece.

    A problem that may break the EU sooner or later is the economic disparity between north and south, shackled by a common currency (which Britain never belonged to). A common exchange rate is great for Germany, tolerable for France, and slow strangulation for Italy, Spain etc.

    On the plus side, there hasn't been another war between France and Germany, which the Project was intended to prevent. There also hasn't been another Mongol invasion.
    Thanks for the explanation.

    From the US point of view, we support a united Europe, a counterweight to China and Russia and the Middle East. A United Europe is similar to North America as a beacon for Western Values like Democratic Governments versus Authoritarian Regimes.

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