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Thread: Above Plain Politics

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    This is what you are going to get here, Montgomery.

    You and Poli having a polite conversation with each other.

    This site is not about polite conversations...it is about mud-slinging warfare.

    I suspect if you and Poli truly wanted "polite conversations"...you would be at a different site have those kinds of conversations. But you both seem to be more interested in having conversations about why there are no polite conversations at THIS site.

    Good luck with whatever you think you are doing...but you've got a better chance of getting a Trump supporter to talk about all the good attributes of Hillary Clinton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    This is what you are going to get here, Montgomery.

    You and Poli having a polite conversation with each other.

    This site is not about polite conversations...it is about mud-slinging warfare.

    I suspect if you and Poli truly wanted "polite conversations"...you would be at a different site have those kinds of conversations. But you both seem to be more interested in having conversations about why there are no polite conversations at THIS site.

    Good luck with whatever you think you are doing...but you've got a better chance of getting a Trump supporter to talk about all the good attributes of Hillary Clinton.
    I'm aware of the odds and thanks for the warning. Right now it's a little more than just Poli and me and I'm still hoping that the moderators and staff will try to help out a bit.

    This site is unique in a couple of ways. The regular section is so devoid of rules ensure any decent discussion. That's both a good thing and a bad thing.

    But there's this section of the forum that is also unique and something no other forum I know of truly has. If we can make this section work then it's going to be something different. Sadly, so far, I've only seen what I see as an attempt by the staff to do it harm.
    Bringing reform and decency from Canada, one forum at a time.

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    Hello Frank,

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    This is what you are going to get here, Montgomery.

    You and Poli having a polite conversation with each other.

    This site is not about polite conversations...it is about mud-slinging warfare.

    I suspect if you and Poli truly wanted "polite conversations"...you would be at a different site have those kinds of conversations. But you both seem to be more interested in having conversations about why there are no polite conversations at THIS site.

    Good luck with whatever you think you are doing...but you've got a better chance of getting a Trump supporter to talk about all the good attributes of Hillary Clinton.
    Good one, Frank. Time will tell. We won't know unless we try.

    Funny thing is: Even with a large Ignore List, I am left with such a great volume of subjects / posters to engage with that I can't possibly keep up with it all. I've found that many people are quite adept at turning the flame throwers on and off at will. I suspect there are a goodly number who wouldn't mind a diversion from the all too predictable food fights. We did have a Clean Debate Week earlier this year.

    Maybe this is how a more popular APP gets started. By having conversations here.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montgomery View Post
    I'm aware of the odds and thanks for the warning. Right now it's a little more than just Poli and me and I'm still hoping that the moderators and staff will try to help out a bit.

    This site is unique in a couple of ways. The regular section is so devoid of rules ensure any decent discussion. That's both a good thing and a bad thing.

    But there's this section of the forum that is also unique and something no other forum I know of truly has. If we can make this section work then it's going to be something different. Sadly, so far, I've only seen what I see as an attempt by the staff to do it harm.
    Well, the problem is if this forum gets popular it is going to require a lot more work on the part of the mods. Stricter rules are going to need more moderation. Who is going to do that extra work to make it happen?

    And besides. It is entirely possible to have an abuse-free experience in the main forums. Simply adopt my PIP. It works like a charm.

    "Personal Ignore Policy PIP: Very simple. I am into civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Flame on me, mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you go on my Ignore List. Zero tolerance. PERMANENT. Forever. No exceptions ever. And you will be banned from any Thread I create. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate!"
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Well, the problem is if this forum gets popular it is going to require a lot more work on the part of the mods. Stricter rules are going to need more moderation. Who is going to do that extra work to make it happen?

    And besides. It is entirely possible to have an abuse-free experience in the main forums. Simply adopt my PIP. It works like a charm.

    "Personal Ignore Policy PIP: Very simple. I am into civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Flame on me, mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you go on my Ignore List. Zero tolerance. PERMANENT. Forever. No exceptions ever. And you will be banned from any Thread I create. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate!"
    I wish it was possible to have your PIP theory working on a forum, but I'm afraid it's not possible. Moderators are human and tend to ban those who don't match their political persuasion. I've been banned from many, as has Iolo, who I know quite well. She's been banned from nearly all of the ones I've been banned from.

    We tend to blame ourselves for being banned from forums but after much experience I've come to realize that it's impossible t last for long on any of them. It's moderator bias that is the problem. Here we have an opportunity to make it different for a while at least. If it catches on and the right can't maintain an upper hand, they will be rescued with some lame excuse. Fun eh!
    Bringing reform and decency from Canada, one forum at a time.

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    Hello montgomery,

    Quote Originally Posted by montgomery View Post
    I wish it was possible to have your PIP theory working on a forum, but I'm afraid it's not possible. Moderators are human and tend to ban those who don't match their political persuasion. I've been banned from many, as has Iolo, who I know quite well. She's been banned from nearly all of the ones I've been banned from.

    We tend to blame ourselves for being banned from forums but after much experience I've come to realize that it's impossible t last for long on any of them. It's moderator bias that is the problem. Here we have an opportunity to make it different for a while at least. If it catches on and the right can't maintain an upper hand, they will be rescued with some lame excuse. Fun eh!
    I find it difficult to believe that posters who engage in strictly civil discourse and obey the given rules get banned. The whole idea of a chat room is to have good debates and activity. If good opposing views are prevented, what is there to debate on? You can't counter what the other side says if you don't let them say it. The problems only arise when people quit arguing their point and begin to make personal attacks. That's where good discussions begin to go downhill, at that precise point. Just stay away from that and there is no concern for getting banned. Don't go personal.

    People have a hard time doing that, so they're afraid to risk being banned. Really, what the penalty should be for violating APP decorum would be to simply get tossed out of APP.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    testing to see if I've been approved

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Frank,



    Good one, Frank. Time will tell. We won't know unless we try.

    Funny thing is: Even with a large Ignore List, I am left with such a great volume of subjects / posters to engage with that I can't possibly keep up with it all. I've found that many people are quite adept at turning the flame throwers on and off at will. I suspect there are a goodly number who wouldn't mind a diversion from the all too predictable food fights. We did have a Clean Debate Week earlier this year.

    Maybe this is how a more popular APP gets started. By having conversations here.
    I'd love to see more of what you are looking for HERE...

    ...out in the non-cyber world.

    HERE...I am looking for the rough and tumble.

    Good luck with APP. My guess is the efforts will go nowhere. Most of the people HERE are HERE for the rough and tumble. The last thing in the world most want to do...is to be courteous and kind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    testing to see if I've been approved
    The thought of your goodself and I being civil to one another, Jeremiah, is an interesting one indeed!

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    Hello Frank,

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I'd love to see more of what you are looking for HERE...

    ...out in the non-cyber world.

    HERE...I am looking for the rough and tumble.

    Good luck with APP. My guess is the efforts will go nowhere. Most of the people HERE are HERE for the rough and tumble. The last thing in the world most want to do...is to be courteous and kind.
    Not strictly true. Everyone who talks to me is courteous and kind. 'Rough and tumble' may be popular, but people don't want to completely let go of 'courteous and kind.' They are happy to be able to let their guard down as long as they know they won't be attacked for it; and I provide that.

    Now part of the notion that most are her for 'rough and tumble' has to be the result of newbies being run off because they can't take it. This place attracts plenty of people who do not come here for 'rough and tumble.' They come here to discuss just plain politics. They run into 'rough and tumble' and realize the name of this place is not representative of what's going on. They came to discuss politics and found that the discussions come laced with vulgar insults. They don't like that. Then they are faced with a choice. Do they accept that and continue or do they give up on what they were seeking and leave. Well, the member list shows the results of those decisions. Entry after entry of newbies who left after just a few posts.

    Here is a random page out of the member list. The number following the join date is the number of posts made by that poster:


    User Name Reverse Sort Order Find Posts Join Date Posts Avatar

    magellan
    n00b Find latest posts by magellan 06-01-2018 1
    magnumgutters
    n00b 03-22-2017 0
    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
    Alliance of builders Find latest posts by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 08-22-2010 15 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's Avatar
    MaikR87953
    n00b 12-24-2015 0
    mailz
    n00b Find latest posts by mailz 11-20-2015 0
    mak2
    Verified User Find latest posts by mak2 07-09-2017 2,215 mak2's Avatar
    makeamericagayagain
    Verified User Find latest posts by makeamericagayagain 08-26-2016 37
    maknak
    n00b Find latest posts by maknak 01-21-2016 5
    Malec
    n00b Find latest posts by Malec 01-08-2018 1
    Manatee
    Verified User Find latest posts by Manatee 12-30-2013 68
    ManU1959
    Left Coast Find latest posts by ManU1959 10-26-2006 111 ManU1959's Avatar
    Maple 5
    Verified User Find latest posts by Maple 5 08-06-2008 9
    marcoreview
    n00b 03-24-2017 0
    Margot
    Verified User Find latest posts by Margot 10-19-2017 23 Margot's Avatar
    Margot Frank
    Verified User Find latest posts by Margot Frank 10-02-2017 10,396 Margot Frank's Avatar
    mariadonahue19@
    n00b 01-22-2018 0
    mariecluby
    n00b Find latest posts by mariecluby 05-15-2018 10
    MariettaIfr
    n00b 09-06-2018 0
    MarilynSzabo
    n00b 03-22-2017 0
    Markafeller
    n00b Find latest posts by Markafeller 05-13-2013 1
    MarkAnderson
    n00b 03-22-2017 0
    markdouglas497
    n00b Find latest posts by markdouglas497 10-02-2016 5
    MarkDuffy
    n00b 07-01-2017 0
    Marquezine
    n00b Find latest posts by Marquezine 11-17-2018 5
    Marty
    n00b Find latest posts by Marty 06-27-2013 1
    MaryAnne
    n00b Find latest posts by MaryAnne 02-07-2016 2
    MarylynCobb
    n00b Find latest posts by MarylynCobb 07-11-2018 6
    Master Fang
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    MasterChief
    Junior Member Find latest posts by MasterChief 07-23-2006 44 MasterChief's Avatar
    MateoMtnClimber
    n00b Find latest posts by MateoMtnClimber 06-29-2018 7

    This part of the list shows 30 members. The list shows that 21 out of 30 posters made 10 posts or fewer. And then they left.

    The people who stay here may be into 'rough and tumble,' but the people who COME here appear to want something else. Maybe if APP was easier to access, and showed more activity, we would get more people who come and stay.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PoliTalker View Post
    Hello Frank,



    Not strictly true. Everyone who talks to me is courteous and kind. 'Rough and tumble' may be popular, but people don't want to completely let go of 'courteous and kind.' They are happy to be able to let their guard down as long as they know they won't be attacked for it; and I provide that.

    Now part of the notion that most are her for 'rough and tumble' has to be the result of newbies being run off because they can't take it. This place attracts plenty of people who do not come here for 'rough and tumble.' They come here to discuss just plain politics. They run into 'rough and tumble' and realize the name of this place is not representative of what's going on. They came to discuss politics and found that the discussions come laced with vulgar insults. They don't like that. Then they are faced with a choice. Do they accept that and continue or do they give up on what they were seeking and leave. Well, the member list shows the results of those decisions. Entry after entry of newbies who left after just a few posts.

    Here is a random page out of the member list. The number following the join date is the number of posts made by that poster:


    User Name Reverse Sort Order Find Posts Join Date Posts Avatar

    magellan
    n00b Find latest posts by magellan 06-01-2018 1
    magnumgutters
    n00b 03-22-2017 0
    Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
    Alliance of builders Find latest posts by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 08-22-2010 15 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's Avatar
    MaikR87953
    n00b 12-24-2015 0
    mailz
    n00b Find latest posts by mailz 11-20-2015 0
    mak2
    Verified User Find latest posts by mak2 07-09-2017 2,215 mak2's Avatar
    makeamericagayagain
    Verified User Find latest posts by makeamericagayagain 08-26-2016 37
    maknak
    n00b Find latest posts by maknak 01-21-2016 5
    Malec
    n00b Find latest posts by Malec 01-08-2018 1
    Manatee
    Verified User Find latest posts by Manatee 12-30-2013 68
    ManU1959
    Left Coast Find latest posts by ManU1959 10-26-2006 111 ManU1959's Avatar
    Maple 5
    Verified User Find latest posts by Maple 5 08-06-2008 9
    marcoreview
    n00b 03-24-2017 0
    Margot
    Verified User Find latest posts by Margot 10-19-2017 23 Margot's Avatar
    Margot Frank
    Verified User Find latest posts by Margot Frank 10-02-2017 10,396 Margot Frank's Avatar
    mariadonahue19@
    n00b 01-22-2018 0
    mariecluby
    n00b Find latest posts by mariecluby 05-15-2018 10
    MariettaIfr
    n00b 09-06-2018 0
    MarilynSzabo
    n00b 03-22-2017 0
    Markafeller
    n00b Find latest posts by Markafeller 05-13-2013 1
    MarkAnderson
    n00b 03-22-2017 0
    markdouglas497
    n00b Find latest posts by markdouglas497 10-02-2016 5
    MarkDuffy
    n00b 07-01-2017 0
    Marquezine
    n00b Find latest posts by Marquezine 11-17-2018 5
    Marty
    n00b Find latest posts by Marty 06-27-2013 1
    MaryAnne
    n00b Find latest posts by MaryAnne 02-07-2016 2
    MarylynCobb
    n00b Find latest posts by MarylynCobb 07-11-2018 6
    Master Fang
    Hard and Fast Find latest posts by Master Fang 10-13-2017 25 Master Fang's Avatar
    MasterChief
    Junior Member Find latest posts by MasterChief 07-23-2006 44 MasterChief's Avatar
    MateoMtnClimber
    n00b Find latest posts by MateoMtnClimber 06-29-2018 7

    This part of the list shows 30 members. The list shows that 21 out of 30 posters made 10 posts or fewer. And then they left.

    The people who stay here may be into 'rough and tumble,' but the people who COME here appear to want something else. Maybe if APP was easier to access, and showed more activity, we would get more people who come and stay.
    Anybody who wants what you say you want...

    ...and who chooses to post here...

    ...is the kind of person who claims to want peace and quiet...and tries to find it at a raucous rock concert.

    THERE ARE NO OTHER FORUMS WHERE ONE CAN DO WHAT ONE CAN DO HERE...

    ...but you want to change that to where this one must conform to what the others are like.

    It makes no sense.

    In any case, good luck.

    I am hoping the owner of the site and the people with influence here...allow the place to remain exactly like it is.

    To that end, I commit to contributing (a very modest amount, since I live at the poverty level) at least twice a year.

    If you want to campaign for anything...campaigning for some bucks to help defray costs makes a lot more sense than campaigning to change this to just another Internet forum.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Frank Apisa For This Post:

    BRUTALITOPS (12-15-2018)

  13. #27 | Top
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    Hello Frank,

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Anybody who wants what you say you want...

    ...and who chooses to post here...

    ...is the kind of person who claims to want peace and quiet...and tries to find it at a raucous rock concert.

    THERE ARE NO OTHER FORUMS WHERE ONE CAN DO WHAT ONE CAN DO HERE...

    ...but you want to change that to where this one must conform to what the others are like.
    Not true at all. I want to a forum where people CHOOSE to be civil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    It makes no sense.
    Of course it doesn't to you. Your impression of what this place should be and mine are different. But both of us have some influence over what this place is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    In any case, good luck.
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    I am hoping the owner of the site and the people with influence here...allow the place to remain exactly like it is.
    We are all the people who have influence here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    To that end, I commit to contributing (a very modest amount, since I live at the poverty level) at least twice a year.

    If you want to campaign for anything...campaigning for some bucks to help defray costs makes a lot more sense than campaigning to change this to just another Internet forum.
    That's what it already is. I can envision improvements and a transcendence. And I am not afraid to put that idea out there and do my part to realize that. Ultimately it has to be up to the participants. I don't appreciate it when new people show up expecting what I envision, and then they are rudely accosted and run off by those who are drawn to the flames. As if some kind of group insecurity prevents more meaningful discussions.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Apisa View Post
    Anybody who wants what you say you want...

    ...and who chooses to post here...

    ...is the kind of person who claims to want peace and quiet...and tries to find it at a raucous rock concert.

    THERE ARE NO OTHER FORUMS WHERE ONE CAN DO WHAT ONE CAN DO HERE...

    ...but you want to change that to where this one must conform to what the others are like.

    It makes no sense.

    In any case, good luck.

    I am hoping the owner of the site and the people with influence here...allow the place to remain exactly like it is.

    To that end, I commit to contributing (a very modest amount, since I live at the poverty level) at least twice a year.

    If you want to campaign for anything...campaigning for some bucks to help defray costs makes a lot more sense than campaigning to change this to just another Internet forum.
    You know very well Frank that Poli isn't going to change this forum. And that's not the objective of my initiative here on this section. It's all about being able to carry on a conversation without the childish spamming that comes from both sides.

    When you say you want the forum to stay exactly the way it is, are you saying that attempts to get this section going are not in your interests? If so then I suggest that you can easily ignore it and not be influenced in any way by it, while you continue to post in the wide open section.

    How about that Frank? Did I get it about right?
    Bringing reform and decency from Canada, one forum at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montgomery View Post
    I'm aware of the odds and thanks for the warning. Right now it's a little more than just Poli and me and I'm still hoping that the moderators and staff will try to help out a bit.

    This site is unique in a couple of ways. The regular section is so devoid of rules ensure any decent discussion. That's both a good thing and a bad thing.

    But there's this section of the forum that is also unique and something no other forum I know of truly has. If we can make this section work then it's going to be something different. Sadly, so far, I've only seen what I see as an attempt by the staff to do it harm.
    the truth is far more simple than you are willing to admit, namely, most people of JPP are not interested in civil conversation. it really is that simple. there is nothing difficult about posting in this forum. there are few if any hurdles, the rules are actually rather clear and straightforward. I am really not sure what you want us to do. This forum exists, people can use it if they want, or they can stay away if they want. There is nothing else to it.


    ---

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    Grind’s got you beat by miles. He is very intelligent.

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    Hello bluedream,

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedream View Post
    the truth is far more simple than you are willing to admit, namely, most people of JPP are not interested in civil conversation.
    I've got my own theory on that. A forum with few rules tends to attract the rule-breakers who have been tossed out of other Forums. Since the Forum is full of people who like to make personal attacks, newbies who are not prepared for that, and hope to be treated fairly, have another thing coming. They get attacked for posting their views. Since that is often their first impression of the place, most of them do a quick about-face and leave.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedream View Post
    it really is that simple. there is nothing difficult about posting in this forum. there are few if any hurdles, the rules are actually rather clear and straightforward. I am really not sure what you want us to do.
    I think what montgomery wants is for you to drop the requirement for special permission to be granted in order to post in APP. I have tried to point out to him that if that were done, and this forum were to actually see more significant participation, that would generate more work for mods. Most JPP posters can't post without making personal attacks. Mods would have to toss everybody who makes a personal attack out. If any personal attacks are allowed, then it becomes a huge gray area. That would make the act of moderation even more subjective than it already is. Are the mods here prepared to take on more work to make that happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedream View Post
    This forum exists, people can use it if they want, or they can stay away if they want. There is nothing else to it.
    With the current arrangement, JPP is a huge turn-off to people seeking civil discourse or anything close to it. It is what it is. APP is not attractive enough to generate much activity, and since there is so little activity it is not attractive. It is a self-fulfilling loop. People who want to post without being nastily attacked also need a minimum activity level to bring them back. That doesn't exist in APP. Posts go unanswered. Those seeking an active site have by then gone elsewhere.
    Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.

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