PoliTalker (11-16-2018)
It only created conflict if people attacked it giving it publicity it would have never had otherwise. We can explain to others our reasons for finding it offensive, but publicly attacking people is counter-productive and accomplished nothing. It even creates opposition from those who otherwise don't care one way or the other about a confederate monument but don't like others telling them what they can and cannot do.
I think it spreads their cause by allowing them to tell people how their heritage is being attacked. I don't think the couple with the signs (or the billboard) fits my description of shaming because it is being done in a civil manner without yelling and screaming and cussing.
What this couple is doing is fine, but attacking people in their home, restaurant, or public because we simply disagree with their political views
is disgusting and does not have the same moral standing as being against confederate monuments. Ted Cruz or Sarah Sanders being attacked in public creates a less civil society and can only result in conservatives treating Democrats the same way when they hold office. I agree both sides should speak their mind, but verbal attacks against someone accomplishes nothing and teaches others that acting like juveniles accomplishes something.
If I tried to shame you for your political views I doubt others would learn anything from it other than I am a raving idiot.
PoliTalker (11-16-2018)
All of what? Tom Sawyer .. Uncle Tom's Cabin?
There were instances of southern 'sympathy' for the plight of African-Americans, but it was minuscule at best.
The reality is the South has been Hell for African-Americans .. far more stories of compassion and change throughout the North.
You're deluded.
AMERICAN HISTORY ITSELF IS A TESTAMENT TO THE STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE OF AFRICAN PEOPLE. WE, ALONG WITH THE COURGE AND SACRIFICES OF CONSCIOUS WHITE AMERICANS, LIKE VIOLA LIUZZO, EVERETT DIRKSEN, AND MANY OTHERS, HAVE FOUGHT AND DIED TOGETHER FOR OUR FREEDOM, AND FOR OUR SURVIVAL.
In America, rights are are not determined by what is just, fair, equitable, honest, nor by what Jesus would do. Rights are determined ONLY by what you can DEMAND.
and you wonder why the small groups and individuals refuse to stand up and do something for you, because you're nothing but ingrates. congrats
A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.
AMERICAN HISTORY ITSELF IS A TESTAMENT TO THE STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE OF AFRICAN PEOPLE. WE, ALONG WITH THE COURGE AND SACRIFICES OF CONSCIOUS WHITE AMERICANS, LIKE VIOLA LIUZZO, EVERETT DIRKSEN, AND MANY OTHERS, HAVE FOUGHT AND DIED TOGETHER FOR OUR FREEDOM, AND FOR OUR SURVIVAL.
In America, rights are are not determined by what is just, fair, equitable, honest, nor by what Jesus would do. Rights are determined ONLY by what you can DEMAND.
surely your hatred is outdistancing everything else. that you add the 'miniscule' numbers of abolitionists in with the rest of the racists because they didn't do much tells me you aren't about realizing history, but ignoring it. that makes YOU the joke.
and revising history? that would be you southern haters and liberals, you and threedee, and many others like desh.
it's pretty disgusting actually, so yeah, you should wonder that instead of automatically categorizing everyone who doesn't agree with you as racist, and yes....you do that.
A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.
Feel free to celebrate the south and confederacy all you like dude. Nobody gives a fuck as the history of the south and confederate 'heroes' is being re-written nearly every day.
Don't like that, nobody cares.
Disgusting is people like you trying to claim how 'caring' the south and its shit-stained history of slavery and horror was to innocent people suffering those horrors.
AMERICAN HISTORY ITSELF IS A TESTAMENT TO THE STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE OF AFRICAN PEOPLE. WE, ALONG WITH THE COURGE AND SACRIFICES OF CONSCIOUS WHITE AMERICANS, LIKE VIOLA LIUZZO, EVERETT DIRKSEN, AND MANY OTHERS, HAVE FOUGHT AND DIED TOGETHER FOR OUR FREEDOM, AND FOR OUR SURVIVAL.
In America, rights are are not determined by what is just, fair, equitable, honest, nor by what Jesus would do. Rights are determined ONLY by what you can DEMAND.
he conflict existed the moment such an inherently offensive monument was erected in full view of the public. At that point, the choice was between ignoring it to try to starve it of attention, or to speak out against it so its message doesn't go unanswered. I think the latter is the wiser choice. This is how a decent society defines what is and isn't viewed as appropriate behavior. I'm not saying it should be burned down, or anything of that sort. That would only play into the hands of the hateful agitators who built the thing. But we should speak out against it.
I see it as analogous to what you should do if you hear a racist joke. In theory, you can just shut your mouth, out of fear that if you repudiate it, you're just giving it more attention. But if you do, that just encourages more such jokes, and fosters a culture where people feel at liberty to use such conduct to put minorities in their place, and minorities are just supposed to keep their heads down and take it. Better to speak out against it -- make it socially awkward for the racist. Make it clear to his intended victims that they are not alone and are not required to keep quiet and take it.
I don't believe that's a significant impact, relative to the positive impact from speaking out. Think of it this way: for generations, few dared speak out against these travesties, and so for a very long time, such monuments just proliferated, with the purveyors of hate being emboldened by the way they'd cowed their targets. Then people started protesting. Sure, that hurt the feelings of some terrible people. But it also started to change the culture, from one of solidarity with the Cult of the Confederacy, to one of solidarity with the victims of their racism. Now confederate monuments are no longer proliferating. For every new one set up, several are removed. Public opinion has been turning against them.It even creates opposition from those who otherwise don't care one way or the other about a confederate monument but don't like others telling them what they can and cannot do.
I'm not saying that you're entirely wrong -- that no opposition has been created among those who otherwise don't care. I'm sure there has been. Some people who don't particularly care about history, and thus would otherwise be uninterested in an historical monument, may well become quite exercised in favor of it by the outrage of people of color "telling them what they can and cannot do." But, I think that's a smaller effect than the positive effect of standing up for what's right.
Here, I think, we're mostly agreed, though I see a gray area. I'd treat it as off-limits confronting a politician in the presence of his minor children, or even non-political adult children. I don't like the idea of innocent victims. However, I think it's appropriate for citizens to make their voices heard to the politicians themselves, in public.What this couple is doing is fine, but attacking people in their home, restaurant, or public because we simply disagree with their political views
is disgusting and does not have the same moral standing as being against confederate monuments.
If Ted Cruz is spending our tax money on a meal in public, why shouldn't we be able to tell him what we think he should be doing in exchange for that money? We're his bosses. He works for us. Now, if he has open access to the public in other spheres -- non-filtered town hall meetings, open office hours, and the like, then it's more appropriate to use those to give him a piece of our minds. But if he walls off those who haven't written him a big campaign check or proven their submission to his political ideals, then we need to use forums of opportunity to give him a piece of our minds.
There's a cost to be paid for a politician who shits on the American people and then eliminates any polite avenues for them to communicate with him: he loses peaceful access to the public sphere, because those he is hurting will use those places as their only chance to speak up.
PoliTalker (11-16-2018)
by bullshit loving anti american progressives, like you, guaranteeing another civil war. we learned from the last one though, no prisoners.
you might want to recheck my position, unless your limited brain pan is stuck in two dimension mode like all the other low information fucksticks out there.
A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.
Do I really need words?
You've already lost the culture wars Don Quote. Society is not listening to you as confederate statues and monuments have increasingly been torn down and smashed into dust.
What the fuck are you waiting on? Shouldn't you have already suited up for The American Civil War, Part Deux?
You are free to all the delusions you choose homeboy.you might want to recheck my position, unless your limited brain pan is stuck in two dimension mode like all the other low information fucksticks out there.
Society ain't (eb) listening.
AMERICAN HISTORY ITSELF IS A TESTAMENT TO THE STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE OF AFRICAN PEOPLE. WE, ALONG WITH THE COURGE AND SACRIFICES OF CONSCIOUS WHITE AMERICANS, LIKE VIOLA LIUZZO, EVERETT DIRKSEN, AND MANY OTHERS, HAVE FOUGHT AND DIED TOGETHER FOR OUR FREEDOM, AND FOR OUR SURVIVAL.
In America, rights are are not determined by what is just, fair, equitable, honest, nor by what Jesus would do. Rights are determined ONLY by what you can DEMAND.
Hello Flash,
I am so with that. That is one truly admirable quality. People need to think more about judging the action, not so much the actor, and always having empathy for everyone, even if they are guilty of serious social violations. That's wisdom and maturity talking. This makes sense, logically; and it's no surprise that Christianity attempts to teach it. It is unfortunate that so many so-called 'Christians' haven't gotten the message.
That is very astute point.
Thanks for voicing it.
Although I do believe there are exceptions. There are altruistic people on both sides; more on the left, I do believe.
It seems so simple to me. It's unfortunate it is so elusive to so many.
If we are here to debate politics; then we are here to talk about issues, events, how we perceive those things, what should be done as a nation, etc. So why do so many on a chat site get so hung up with the other posters? That's just foaming with immaturity. And it is bothersome to those who come to actually talk about just plain politics - to have to wade through all the flame wars, looking for the higher quality discussions.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
then society can die as far as I care. both sides of you idiots. you're so fucking intent on 'beating' the other side, you've lost your american way. That's fine, though. those of us not involved in your lefty/righty bullshit will be happy to kill as many of you as we need to. that includes your racist ass, homey.
A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.
AMERICAN HISTORY ITSELF IS A TESTAMENT TO THE STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE OF AFRICAN PEOPLE. WE, ALONG WITH THE COURGE AND SACRIFICES OF CONSCIOUS WHITE AMERICANS, LIKE VIOLA LIUZZO, EVERETT DIRKSEN, AND MANY OTHERS, HAVE FOUGHT AND DIED TOGETHER FOR OUR FREEDOM, AND FOR OUR SURVIVAL.
In America, rights are are not determined by what is just, fair, equitable, honest, nor by what Jesus would do. Rights are determined ONLY by what you can DEMAND.
Hello Flash, Oneuli,
It's been very interesting reading this highly intellectual argument. Flash, you make such a good point, I've found myself on the fence, seeing both points of view. But Oneuli, you nailed it here. Yours is totally the better argument. I've been back and forth on this, but I now side with you.
Flash, your approach is what led to so many monuments, schools, cities, roads, counties, etc, being named after rebels who became the enemy of the United States, and sought to destroy it. People saying, 'Oh, just don't draw attention to it,' because "It only created conflict if people attacked it giving it publicity it would have never had otherwise." That is totally giving in!
This monument is a death cry of racism, it is frustration that society is tearing so many other monuments down, or moving them to graveyards. Society is renaming schools, abandoning the mind-control of having all these things named after the confederacy. Society is moving forward, but the mindset who builds monuments like this is clinging to the past.
Personal Ignore Policy PIP: I like civil discourse. I will give you all the respect in the world if you respect me. Mouth off to me, or express overt racism, you will be PERMANENTLY Ignore Listed. Zero tolerance. No exceptions. I'll never read a word you write, even if quoted by another, nor respond to you, nor participate in your threads. ... Ignore the shallow. Cherish the thoughtful. Long Live Civil Discourse, Mutual Respect, and Good Debate! ps: Feel free to adopt my PIP. It works well.
Bookmarks