Surreal Rules

[IHateGovernment]

The way Gaffer says it people form their opinons around the idea that they hate Bush rather than what is actually happening in which they form an opinion about policy and then decide they hate Bush.

[Care4all]

Yes, but mostly people hate Bush because of his policies... or the policies that are currently being conducted. I doubt you are against the Iraq war because of Bush, but because it's a stupid war that is about to kill more people than all those killed in 9/11, all through a manipulatory game played by a man who abused his power. You obviously hate Bush, but that isn't your main reason.

Precisely...I do not hate President Bush personally, but I do disagree vehemently with almost all of his policies regarding Iraq and the deceitful and manipulative way he got Americans and Congress to support him, regarding the trickle down theory and the manner in which he redistributed our taxes with tax breaks focussed mainly on the wealthiest while not lowering the 15% tax bracket percentage at all, which is one of the largest tax bracket for middle America, regarding his disregard for our constitution and his duty to follow it and oath to uphold it, regarding his big spending budgets, the way he maniupulates figures and analysis measurements like moving fast food industry out of the service food industry in to manufacturing so that his figures fair better in manufacturing and the impact of globalization and his trade policies don't get seen correctly, his foreign policies....you name it, even the way he hires useless people to do the jobs that need to be done.... like Mike Brown/Cherkoff with homeland security/Katrina.....and the way he has changed the Laws of our times without anyone so much as questioning him for the first 5-6 years without getting labeled as a treasonist or traitor....or terrorist lover..... and I do not like the secretiveness of this administration....they are totally against SUNSHINE.....and all the sunshine laws....not even his supposed plan to "save" social security was worth a crap in your hand.....

He falls short in many ways imo...

there isn't much that I can think of that I agree with him on honestly...

care

[Damocles]

Precisely...I do not hate President Bush personally, but I do disagree vehemently with almost all of his policies regarding Iraq and the deceitful and manipulative way he got Americans and Congress to support him, regarding the trickle down theory and the manner in which he redistributed our taxes with tax breaks focussed mainly on the wealthiest while not lowering the 15% tax bracket percentage at all, which is one of the largest tax bracket for middle America, regarding his disregard for our constitution and his duty to follow it and oath to uphold it, regarding his big spending budgets, the way he maniupulates figures and analysis measurements like moving fast food industry out of the service food industry in to manufacturing so that his figures fair better in manufacturing and the impact of globalization and his trade policies don't get seen correctly, his foreign policies....you name it, even the way he hires useless people to do the jobs that need to be done.... like Mike Brown/Cherkoff with homeland security/Katrina.....and the way he has changed the Laws of our times without anyone so much as questioning him for the first 5-6 years without getting labeled as a treasonist or traitor....or terrorist lover..... and I do not like the secretiveness of this administration....they are totally against SUNSHINE.....and all the sunshine laws....not even his supposed plan to "save" social security was worth a crap in your hand.....

He falls short in many ways imo...

there isn't much that I can think of that I agree with him on honestly...

care

Care, it is deceitful to say that the 15% bracket got no break... They did, first many who were on the roles were removed and they received the same relief as those at the beginning. Secondly, this "15% receive no benefit" isn't from the cuts it is from the ACCELERATION of the drop for the 27% to 25%...

What happened with the 15% bracket is they cut off the bottom then expanded the top so that some who were in the next-higher bracket dropped to 15%, those on the bottom dropped to 10%... These people also received the refunded money for the tax drop (notice they were paying taxes)...

So, instead of paying for almost all their income in the 15% bracket, a greater portion was taxed at the lower amount, giving them a net tax break.

It is deceitful to say that they received no benefit at all. In fact, whomever told you that was lying to you by omission.

[AnyOldIron]

And pigiron is just a commie so has nothing to add either.

Yeah, you hide from the debate, pussy....

[AnyOldIron]

The way Gaffer says it people form their opinons around the idea that they hate Bush rather than what is actually happening in which they form an opinion about policy and then decide they hate Bush.

It's just a method of dismissing any argument that opposes him. Typical of a pussy that can't (thus won't) debate.

[AnyOldIron]

YOu see it this way because you are fairly new to this board and have not been through the last 3-4 years with people like Anyold who have gone in depth of what it is that President Bush has done to make them "just hate him" now....which is what you are seeing....

And I have gone thru nearly 4 years with Anyold putting down religion and me arguing till my last breath in favor of it....I have put up with him saying that I have been brainwashed, I have listen to him compare American Christian schools to the equivalent of the Madrass Schools in the middle east, I have argued with him over Israel, and zionism, and you name it....

But none the less Gaffer, I think that Anyoldiron is a decent bloke....who lives in a different world from us and it is like traveling to a foreign country listening to him.... it can only enlighten me is how I look at it and I think you really ought to consider this for yourself.... no one is worth ignoring! of course this is my humble opinion....but Anyoldiron is one of the least offensive guy there is....he is really a nice guy, who hates bush for many, many reasons...not because he is a republican because being that he is a Brit there is nothing at stake, but because of what President Bush and his administration has SAID and DONE......that's all....? Like many others out there....he is not alone. And I agree it sounds like "just Bush bashing" but there are many facts, actions, and details that are what is behind those emotions....and comments, it just gets tiring repeating these policies and actions that we differ with over and over and over again....and then when you do, the other side just repeats their same old comments back that HAVE ALREADY been disproven.... it gets pretty frustrating really....

And I am certain there are plenty of things on your side that the dems keep retaliating with partisan garbage too...

I just don't see how this country will ever move forward unless we unite or agree to respectfully disagree.... but it just seems like there is soo much at stake for America if we just cordially agree to disagree, we need to CHANGE MINDS! lol

but neither side ever really does....

care

Thankyou for your kind words Care4all. I appreciate discussing issues with you a great deal and I always look forward to your opinion.

You are a credit to any discussion group you are involved in...

[AnyOldIron]

who hates bush for many, many reasons

Just to point out that I don't hate Bush. Hate is a really powerful emotion, akin to love. I just don't feel that strongly for the man.

I think he is an extremist, and an embarrassment to the US and the English speaking world. I think his actions has been catastrophic in relation to the battle against the other religious extremists, the muslims. I think his motives are not as he states.

But I don't hate the guy. I don't think I hate anyone...

[Care4all]

Care, it is deceitful to say that the 15% bracket got no break... They did, first many who were on the roles were removed and they received the same relief as those at the beginning. Secondly, this "15% receive no benefit" isn't from the cuts it is from the ACCELERATION of the drop for the 27% to 25%...

What happened with the 15% bracket is they cut off the bottom then expanded the top so that some who were in the next-higher bracket dropped to 15%, those on the bottom dropped to 10%... These people also received the refunded money for the tax drop (notice they were paying taxes)...

So, instead of paying for almost all their income in the 15% bracket, a greater portion was taxed at the lower amount, giving them a net tax break.

It is deceitful to say that they received no benefit at all. In fact, whomever told you that was lying to you by omission.

Damo,

A person in the median salary range of the 15% bracket did NOT get a reduction in their tax bracket rate...ie, the 39% bracket got reduced to the 36% bracket, the 28% bracket was reduced to 25%....

There was not a reduction in the 15% tax BRACKET, ie....from 15% to 12% for the entire income BRACKET.....

the first 10k or so that I make and that you make and that the guy in the 39% bracket makes got reduced from being taxed at 15% to 10%,....this was given to every single person out there and was not a reduction in the 15% tax bracket....as I have stated....which amounted to about 500 dollars a year in tax savings that EVERY tax payer gets.
That's it Damo, if you were in the middle of the 15% bracket....oh, unless of course if you had children, but once again, the child credits went to people that even made enough money to be in the 39% tax bracket...and people without children got nothing, like matt and I....

And if it were not for Democrats and Maine's republican olympia snow, the first 10k of everyone's salary would NOT have been lowered. The Bush proposal DID NOT have the first 10k reduced to 10%....which again, went to everyone's tax savings not just those nearing the bottom.

Every tax bracket got a reduction in their bracket's percentage IN FULL, EXCEPT the 15% tax bracket Damo....I stick with what I have said, regarding this....

care

[Damocles]

Damo,

A person in the median salary range of the 15% bracket did NOT get a reduction in their tax bracket rate...ie, the 39% bracket got reduced to the 36% bracket, the 28% bracket was reduced to 25%....

There was not a reduction in the 15% tax BRACKET, ie....from 15% to 12% for the entire income BRACKET.....

the first 10k or so that I make and that you make and that the guy in the 39% bracket makes got reduced from being taxed at 15% to 10%,....this was given to every single person out there and was not a reduction in the 15% tax bracket....as I have stated....which amounted to about 500 dollars a year in tax savings that EVERY tax payer gets.
That's it Damo, if you were in the middle of the 15% bracket....oh, unless of course if you had children, but once again, the child credits went to people that even made enough money to be in the 39% tax bracket...and people without children got nothing, like matt and I....

And if it were not for Democrats and Maine's republican olympia snow, the first 10k of everyone's salary would NOT have been lowered. The Bush proposal DID NOT have the first 10k reduced to 10%....which again, went to everyone's tax savings not just those nearing the bottom.

Every tax bracket got a reduction in their bracket's percentage IN FULL, EXCEPT the 15% tax bracket Damo....I stick with what I have said, regarding this....

care

Once again, no reduction in the actual bracket doesn't mean that they did not get benefit. A larger portion of their income was taxed at the lower level of 10% thus giving them a net benefit. If you pay less in taxes, and these people do, then you definitely get benefit from such a tax cut.

In other words, it is deceitful to say that they got no benefit at all. That is a lie.

[Care4all]

Once again, no reduction in the actual bracket doesn't mean that they did not get benefit. A larger portion of their income was taxed at the lower level of 10% thus giving them a net benefit. If you pay less in taxes, and these people do, then you definitely get benefit from such a tax cut.

In other words, it is deceitful to say that they got no benefit at all. That is a lie.

no where did i say THEY GOT NO BENEFIT AT ALL....(they did not get a reduction in their full tax bracket's income as ALL other groups) i even went in to how the first 10 k made got reduced giving about 500 bucs a year, to someone in the median salary range of the bracket when i went in to my explanation....?

you are nit pickin', i said precisely the truth, and i explained it more than once.... make what YOU wish of it my friend.....

care

[Damocles]

no where did i say THEY GOT NO BENEFIT AT ALL....(they did not get a reduction in their full tax bracket's income as ALL other groups) i even went in to how the first 10 k made got reduced giving about 500 bucs a year, to someone in the median salary range of the bracket when i went in to my explanation....?

you are nit pickin', i said precisely the truth, and i explained it more than once.... make what YOU wish of it my friend.....

care

$500 in savings is at a higher percentage than any other tax bracket gets. The idea is that they actually end up with a higher percentage of saving in comparison. It gets silly to say, "Well They weren't just simply excused..."

And BTW, in your first post that I quoted you stated that they received no benefit.

[Gaffer]

The way Gaffer says it people form their opinons around the idea that they hate Bush rather than what is actually happening in which they form an opinion about policy and then decide they hate Bush.

I have no problem with someone that disagrees with Bush's policies. I have discussed some of the policies before. I disagree with some of his policies. What i don't care for is the constant rhetoric using paragraph after paragraph just to say the same three little words. Mostly its just because the libs lost the elections and control of the government.

As I said before I have not heard one thing from any liberal about how they intend to do things different other than cut , run and appease. The dems need to go after Bush for failing to control the borders, domestic issues and expansion of the beauacracy we call a government. But all I see is the hate Bush rhetoric, not anything based on hating him for his policy. Care4 is the only one I have seen posting here that does hate him for his policies, rather than the fact he was elected.

I have to base my opinions on what I hear in the news and read on various blogs and news sources. That gives me a limited picture of whats going on. I'm sure there's lots more in the big picture that we don't see and won't for another 30 to 50 years. Many successes and failures we won't get to learn about. I'm sure there were many successes and failures in the clinton administration as well that we don't get access too.

I have always dispised clinton. But when we were involved in kosovo I supported him. He was the commander in chief. I didn't bad mouth him. All the libs today can do is bad mouth and try to undermine Bush at every level. They show a country divided in a time of war when we should be showing a united front. All that does is encourage and imbolden our enemies.

[AnyOldIron]

I have always dispised clinton. But when we were involved in kosovo I supported him. He was the commander in chief. I didn't bad mouth him. All the libs today can do is bad mouth and try to undermine Bush at every level. They show a country divided in a time of war when we should be showing a united front. All that does is encourage and imbolden our enemies.

Time of war or not, ignoring the failings of a leader, ramming your head into the sand, is not a good approach to take.

Because you are in a time of war doesn't mean that criticism should stop. That's how Hitlers (Godwin's law exempt) occur.

Imagine if the British people hadn't criticised Chamberlain during WWII...

We wouldn't have had Churchill, we'd have lost the war, the US would have sued for peace and the world's Jewish population would have been lost.