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Thread: What's causing rising debt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grugore View Post
    There is nothing more costly and yet more worthless than a second rate military. Democrats have constantly been opposed to military spending. Now we are paying the price to rebuild our military, after years of neglect. So who is really responsible for this deficit?

    you are a liar

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    What are these austerity measures that Republicans supposedly implemented? Out of one side of your mouth you say they blow up the debt and then you say they implement austerity measures. Republicans don't actually cut spending. Once every blue moon they may reduce the growth in something but they don't actually cut spending.

    Democrats don't have a problem with government spending (see Bernie Sanders and MMT) they just don't like how Republicans spend. It's not on their interest groups. And of course the attempted denial of the cost of entitlements. Everything else pales in comparison
    Deficts and Debt was one of the primary issues for Republicans throughout the Obama years, least they said it was one of their major concerns. Keep in mind that Obama faced two wars, an unpaid prescription plan, and a historical recession with decreasing tax revenue coming in. In later years as the economy improved, Obama cut back on discretionary spending in attempts to reduce deficits

    Trump gets elected and inherits an advancing economy and rather than continue as is with a substantial debt grants a major tax cut while increasing spending. Simply looking at what goes out and what comes in dictates blowing up an already major debt. Examining entitlements has to come next, which many thought was the goal of the tax cut

    Trump's economic policy is nuts, short term gain aimed at getting elected in 2020, long term pain thereafter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak View Post
    The $10 TRILLION Obama added to our debt is going to also have to be repaid by future generations.
    Trump could pass it, and the difference is Obama created the debt dealing with two wars, anunpaid drug prescription program, and a historical recession. Trump, inherited an advancing economy not a recession, one war is over and the other dwindling, and he goes ahead and blows up the debt by creating a stimulus for the upper income brackets in the country

    Even a high school economics students can see the difference and the consequences

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    The Republicans are engaged in their usual two-step swindle. Step one, they give massive tax handouts to the rich and spending increases for their buddies in the military industries. Step two, they say the resulting run-up in debt requires austerity measures to be taken when it comes to programs that regular Americans rely on, like Social Security and Medicare. Mitch McConnell insists that cuts to those things are needed, because they're what's causing the problem. Let's test that rhetoric.

    Here's what the budget projections looked like the day Trump took office:
    I guess you missed 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 when the Budget deficits were in the trillions right snowflake?

    Did you also miss when the Democrats were finally kicked totally to the curb in 2012 and Republicans controlled the Congress, deficits started going down dramatically?

    I guess you also missed that the full effect of Obamacare and Obamunism took effect in 2017 after Obama left office. Gee, I wonder why?

    But not to worry snowflakes; Trump hasn't even been here two years. He has asked his cabinet heads to come back with 5% cuts in their budgets. It's a great start.

    Now you need to worry about Democrats taking back the House. If that occurs, expect the deficits and pain to become much greater.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    As you can see, when Trump was coming in, the anticipated gross federal debt, as of FY 2019 (the fiscal year we're currently in) was 103.2% of GDP and falling. But now it's 108.1% and rising. Clearly, things have taken a turn for the worse. But why?
    ObamaCare. That's why. Dunce. It didn't come into full effect until Obama was out of office. Great timing don't you think?
    Last edited by Truth Detector; 10-17-2018 at 04:04 PM.
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    Hello, and right on Oneuli,

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    The Republicans are engaged in their usual two-step swindle. Step one, they give massive tax handouts to the rich and spending increases for their buddies in the military industries. Step two, they say the resulting run-up in debt requires austerity measures to be taken when it comes to programs that regular Americans rely on, like Social Security and Medicare. Mitch McConnell insists that cuts to those things are needed, because they're what's causing the problem. Let's test that rhetoric.

    Here's what the budget projections looked like the day Trump took office:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170120...et/Historicals

    Here they are now:

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/historical-tables/

    As you can see, when Trump was coming in, the anticipated gross federal debt, as of FY 2019 (the fiscal year we're currently in) was 103.2% of GDP and falling. But now it's 108.1% and rising. Clearly, things have taken a turn for the worse. But why?

    Well, dig into the numbers and you'll see it isn't Medicare. When Obama left office, Medicare spending for FY 2019 was projected to be $663 billion. Now it's estimated at $631 billion. Medicare has actually wound up being about 5% cheaper than we were expecting it would be, back when we thought debt would now be lower as a share of GDP (and dropping).

    It's not Social Security, either. Back when Trump was sworn in, we were projecting that Social Security would cost us $1.095 trillion this year, where now it looks like it'll cost $1.052 trillion. Again, Social Security is proving to be about 4% cheaper than we thought it would be, back when we thought debt would now be lower and falling.

    It's not other social spending, either. For example, back when Trump first took office, the projection was that in FY 2019 we'd spend $127.9 billion on "education, training, employment, and social services." Now it looks like we'll spend $100.6 billion. That part of the budget is expected to be about 21% less expensive than previously anticipated. We're also on track to spend a lot less than we anticipated on income security, energy, natural resources and the environment, transportation, agriculture, and just about every other area of domestic spending.

    So, why is it that debt is significantly higher than expected, and rising, when previously we thought by now we'd have a manageable and improving situation? Well, there are a couple reasons, neither of which have anything to do with the stuff Republicans want to talk about.

    One is that our military spending -- which was already anticipated to be preposterous high -- has risen still higher. We're on track to spend about 15% more on "national defense" this year than we had anticipated (despite having anticipated a budget that would already have more than doubled the spending of all our potential adversaries combined). Veterans spending is also up a bit.

    The big change, though, was from the tax cuts. Back when Trump came to office, we were projecting $4.095 trillion in receipts for FY 2019. Now we're on track for $3.422 trillion. That $673 billion shortfall more than accounts for the difference between where we thought our debt situation would be and where it is. Even as the government has become stingier and stingier when it comes to middle-class American needs, deficits have sky-rocketed, because of the tax changes.

    Specifically, individual income tax receipts are down by a little over 15% compared to where they were projected to be (with the VAST majority of the change impacting the very wealthy), and corporate income tax receipts are down by a little over 57% compared to projections. Excise taxes have also plummeted, relative to projections, by about 29%. That last category includes a drop in taxes collected in relation to Obamacare (e.g., taxes on tanning services and medical devices), as well as a huge (56%) drop in excise taxes on tobacco, relative to the earlier 2019 projections.

    So, don't fall for the Republican bullshit. The reason our debt is rising isn't because of Social Security and Medicare, much less other social spending programs. We're spending considerably less on those things than was projected, and yet we've moved from debt being a falling share of GDP, to it rising rapidly. That's about Republican-backed changes: higher military expenditures and lower taxes, especially for corporations and the wealthy.

    Unfortunately, most political and budget reporters are innumerate. They didn't learn basic math in j-school, so they'll take the lazy way out and report this as a he-said, she-said thing. Effectively, they'll just be transcriptionists for the party leaders' respective talking points. But the budget numbers and history are available at the links I provided. You can follow up on your own and confirm what I've said. Medicare and Social Security are even more affordable now than we thought they'd be, but reckless upper-class tax cutting and obscene military overspend have broken the budget.
    DON'T CONFUSE THEM WITH THE FACTS

    They like their myths better.
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    Hello cawacko,

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    What are these austerity measures that Republicans supposedly implemented? Out of one side of your mouth you say they blow up the debt and then you say they implement austerity measures. Republicans don't actually cut spending. Once every blue moon they may reduce the growth in something but they don't actually cut spending.

    Democrats don't have a problem with government spending (see Bernie Sanders and MMT) they just don't like how Republicans spend. It's not on their interest groups. And of course the attempted denial of the cost of entitlements. Everything else pales in comparison
    If you spend more and cut what's coming in the debt goes up. Don't blame Democrats for what you did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    Yes. It should be obvious -- and, in fact, it's something that people should have been able to anticipate would happen once the Republicans had power. The record, when it comes to debt, is quite clear. Between 1946 and 1981, debt fell as a share of GDP by over 73%. But then we got Reaganomics and an orgy of peace-time military spending, and by the early 1990s, debt as a share of GDP had more then doubled. Then it came down again, as a result of Clinton's policies, only to start spiking again when Bush pushed through another set of upper-class tax cuts and military spending hikes. So, of course, when projections showed debt again falling as a share of GDP, it was obvious what would happen if Trump became president. Yet the dummies on the right are going to continue to act as if this has nothing to do with their long-debunked policies.
    You're making so much SENSE!

    Republicans won't listen to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grugore View Post
    There is nothing more costly and yet more worthless than a second rate military. Democrats have constantly been opposed to military spending. Now we are paying the price to rebuild our military, after years of neglect. So who is really responsible for this deficit?
    Just cut it out. We spend 7 times more on our military than anybody else.

    What's second-rate is our infrastructure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    Well, dig into the numbers and you'll see it isn't Medicare. When Obama left office, Medicare spending for FY 2019 was projected to be $663 billion. Now it's estimated at $631 billion. Medicare has actually wound up being about 5% cheaper than we were expecting it would be, back when we thought debt would now be lower as a share of GDP (and dropping).
    Projected spending and estimated doesn't equate to lower spending levels fool. Do you have a link to the data you are claiming here? I can't find anything that supports the notion we will be spending LESS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    It's not Social Security, either. Back when Trump was sworn in, we were projecting that Social Security would cost us $1.095 trillion this year, where now it looks like it'll cost $1.052 trillion. Again, Social Security is proving to be about 4% cheaper than we thought it would be, back when we thought debt would now be lower and falling.
    Link?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    It's not other social spending, either. For example, back when Trump first took office, the projection was that in FY 2019 we'd spend $127.9 billion on "education, training, employment, and social services." Now it looks like we'll spend $100.6 billion. That part of the budget is expected to be about 21% less expensive than previously anticipated. We're also on track to spend a lot less than we anticipated on income security, energy, natural resources and the environment, transportation, agriculture, and just about every other area of domestic spending.
    Link?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    So, why is it that debt is significantly higher than expected, and rising, when previously we thought by now we'd have a manageable and improving situation? Well, there are a couple reasons, neither of which have anything to do with the stuff Republicans want to talk about.

    One is that our military spending -- which was already anticipated to be preposterous high -- has risen still higher. We're on track to spend about 15% more on "national defense" this year than we had anticipated (despite having anticipated a budget that would already have more than doubled the spending of all our potential adversaries combined). Veterans spending is also up a bit.
    Mandatory spending is currently estimated to be $2.739 trillion for FY 2019. The two largest mandatory programs are Social Security and Medicare. That's 62 percent of all federal spending. It's also three times more than the military budget.

    The FY 2019 budget estimates it will cost $1.046 trillion.

    Medicare will cost $625 billion in FY 2019.

    Medicaid costs will be $412 billion in FY 2019.

    All other mandatory programs will cost $656 billion. Most of these are income support programs provide federal assistance for those who can't provide for themselves.

    https://www.thebalance.com/current-f...ending-3305772

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    The big change, though, was from the tax cuts.
    Can't be; revenue has not declined. Therefore, it is a SPENDING problem not a revenue problem. Dunce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    Back when Trump came to office, we were projecting $4.095 trillion in receipts for FY 2019. Now we're on track for $3.422 trillion. That $673 billion shortfall more than accounts for the difference between where we thought our debt situation would be and where it is. Even as the government has become stingier and stingier when it comes to middle-class American needs, deficits have sky-rocketed, because of the tax changes.
    I guess you don't know this, but those are projections and the OMB has NEVER gotten ANY projections right EVER. FOOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    So, don't fall for the Republican bullshit. The reason our debt is rising isn't because of Social Security and Medicare, much less other social spending programs. We're spending considerably less on those things than was projected, and yet we've moved from debt being a falling share of GDP, to it rising rapidly. That's about Republican-backed changes: higher military expenditures and lower taxes, especially for corporations and the wealthy.
    What we won't fall for is your laughable bullshit snowflake. Mandatory spending takes up 62% of the budgets. You cannot reduce them; they are mandatory by law. The defense budget is NOT the problem. Fool.

    The tax reductions did not cause this. Revenue is HIGHER. BUT, SPENDING continues to outpace revenue. Therefore, we have a SPENDING problem.

    One last thing, Corporations don't pay taxes. As a rule, ALL their costs are passed onto the consumers. Next time Democrats demand raising taxes on corporations, thank them for raising YOUR taxes. Fool.

    Fascinating how you leftist liars never seemed concerned at all about the massive deficit spending Obama engaged in. Now, suddenly, you're not merely demanding you take the moral high ground for the very first time, but the fiscally disciplined ground. STFU, seriously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    Yes. It should be obvious -- and, in fact, it's something that people should have been able to anticipate would happen once the Republicans had power. The record, when it comes to debt, is quite clear. Between 1946 and 1981, debt fell as a share of GDP by over 73%. But then we got Reaganomics and an orgy of peace-time military spending, and by the early 1990s, debt as a share of GDP had more then doubled.
    It wasn't Reagan; it was the Democratic controlled House run by Tipsy O'Neil you moron. He declared ALL of Reagan's budgets DOA.

    But NOTHING compares to the deficits Obama ran; why didn't you care back then? STFU, seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    Then it came down again, as a result of Clinton's policies, only to start spiking again when Bush pushed through another set of upper-class tax cuts and military spending hikes. So, of course, when projections showed debt again falling as a share of GDP, it was obvious what would happen if Trump became president. Yet the dummies on the right are going to continue to act as if this has nothing to do with their long-debunked policies.
    That is a lie; as a result of Clinton's policies with a Democratically controlled Congress, the American people then elected a Republican majority in Congress for the first time in four decades. After that, they managed to balance the budget and bring down deficits.

    I do wish you had a brain and weren't a hyper partisan dumbass in steroids.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
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    Hello cawacko,

    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    No, it's not facts, it's the spin you put on them. I can be just as partisan as the next person so I'm not speaking as holier than thou but we spin the numbers to fit our narrative. That's how you're choosing everything to be rosy for Democrats and doom and gloom for Republicans.
    You're pretty good at the spin game yourself, cawacko. Always finding the angle that leans right. (I do think that is more challenging than succinctly presenting just the right facts, like Oneuli does. And presenting it in a professional way. If you don't work for the Republicans it is a good thing for the nation.

    There aren't many of us here who stay clean, but you two do it while still talking to the foulest-mouthed trolls on both sides. Very commendable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    As you know, it's ONLY liberals who worry about debt. Conservatives like to pretend they care about fiscal responsibility when they see that as a BS argument that will support further gutting social spending.


    Historical facts say you're full of bullshit snowflake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    Between Obama's first budget year and his last one, we averaged a little under a $817 billion deficit.
    Obama's first budget year with a Democratically controlled Congress the deficit hit an all time record of $1.413 trillion liar. His second budget year with a Democratically controlled congress it hit $1.295 trillion.

    His third budget year hit $1.299 trillion. After Republicans took the house that deficit started to decline.


    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    That's despite the fact Obama inherited the worst recession since the Great Depression, whereas Trump inherited a growing economy. If Trump gets eight years, the nation will almost certainly have added more debt on his watch than Obama's. Were you honestly ignorant of that?
    There you go with that tired old bullshit again. Poor Obama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    I wish we'd stop with the tax cuts for the rich, but every time a Republican gets into the White House, there's another big push to help the rich pull away from the rest of the country, and we get yet another round of upper-class tax cuts.
    Of course you hate tax cuts; you're a math challenged dullard who thinks we have a revenue problem and cannot comprehend it is actually a SPENDING problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    My policy idea is to emulate policies that have proven to be successful in the past, rather than to repeat the errors of the Reagan and Bush years and pray things work out differently this time. How about you?
    The only policies that have proven to be successful were when BillyBob and Obama accomplished what no other Democrats had accomplished up until then; losing the House and the Senate to Republicans.

    I can't believe you're this stupid and ignorant of the facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneuli View Post
    Yep. But, as you know, on Obama's watch we started reducing the deficit immediately, and it ended up about half what he'd inherited. By comparison, we're going the other way now, with exploding deficits, which will mean debt that's run up at an even faster pace.
    It doesn't occur to you, or you're just a pathological lying a-hole, is that it actually started being reduced when Republicans took over the Congress. What also doesn't occur to you, or you're just a pathological lying a-hole, is that Obamacare came in full force at the beginning of 2017 after Obama left. Thank you Obama.

    Revenue is up; but SPENDING is outpacing revenue.

    I am going to try to educate you with a simple formula: When taxes are reduced, people have more money to spend. More spending equals more production. More production equals more jobs. More jobs equals more taxpayers. More taxpayers equals higher tax revenue.

    We have a SPENDING problem in this country. Not a tax reduction problem or a revenue problem. Dunce.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Deficts and Debt was one of the primary issues for Republicans throughout the Obama years, least they said it was one of their major concerns. Keep in mind that Obama faced two wars, an unpaid prescription plan, and a historical recession with decreasing tax revenue coming in. In later years as the economy improved, Obama cut back on discretionary spending in attempts to reduce deficits
    Poor Obama; so he lied when he said he could bring the economy back with hopey changey didn't he?

    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Trump gets elected and inherits an advancing economy and rather than continue as is with a substantial debt grants a major tax cut while increasing spending. Simply looking at what goes out and what comes in dictates blowing up an already major debt. Examining entitlements has to come next, which many thought was the goal of the tax cut

    Trump's economic policy is nuts, short term gain aimed at getting elected in 2020, long term pain thereafter
    Translation: Trump gets elected and suddenly leftists who never gave a shit about morality, suddenly demand the high ground and who never gave a shit about record deficits under Obamunism are now suddenly deficit hawks.

    STFU, seriously.
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Deficts and Debt was one of the primary issues for Republicans throughout the Obama years, least they said it was one of their major concerns. Keep in mind that Obama faced two wars, an unpaid prescription plan, and a historical recession with decreasing tax revenue coming in. In later years as the economy improved, Obama cut back on discretionary spending in attempts to reduce deficits

    Trump gets elected and inherits an advancing economy and rather than continue as is with a substantial debt grants a major tax cut while increasing spending. Simply looking at what goes out and what comes in dictates blowing up an already major debt. Examining entitlements has to come next, which many thought was the goal of the tax cut

    Trump's economic policy is nuts, short term gain aimed at getting elected in 2020, long term pain thereafter
    "Obama cut back spending". Now why did that happen? It wasn't by choice, as he and you wanted more stimulus. Remember the supposed Republican austerity and the party of no? That was because the Republican congress would not approve additional stimulus spending. Again, it's just a few years later and you're spinning a new tail

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