Philosphy, free will, and the absence of Religious authority

[Cypress]

The premise: A philosophical approach arises when religious authority is not regarded as all-powerful.


The reason philosophical critical inquiry, and epistemological thought arose in ancient Greece is because there was no powerful state religion that inhibited reason and free will.

Philosophy is created when the mind turns from practical matters of avoiding danger and uncertainty to a form of critical inquiry in which its own resources are objectified and subjected to critical scrutiny. The ancient Greek world transformed inquiry from an essentially practical or ritualistic/religious enterprise into a form of abstract and theoretical thought. Was there something about the Greeks or their culture that brought about this transformation? The Greeks’ relation to their gods, who had large but limited powers and business of their own to mind, was one influence. The fact that the religious establishment had little authority to pronounce on ultimate questions of reality was another. Further, the Greeks’ commercial and military encounters with other cultures led them to questions of social organization. These things induced the Greeks to weigh themselves in relation to others, to examine the powerful influence of custom on thought, and to recognize no viable alternative to the use of their own limited intellectual resources.

Great Ideas of Philosophy,
Professor Daniel N. Robinson, Ph.D.
Philosophy Faculty, Oxford University; Distinguished Professor, Emeritus, Georgetown University

https://www.thegreatcourses.com/cour...d-edition.html

[Jack]

"On a day in 399 BC the philosopher Socrates stood before a jury of 500 of his fellow Athenians accused of "refusing to recognize the gods recognized by the state" and of "corrupting the youth." If found guilty; his penalty could be death. The trial took place in the heart of the city, the jurors seated on wooden benches surrounded by a crowd of spectators. Socrates' accusers (three Athenian citizens) were allotted three hours to present their case, after which, the philosopher would have three hours to defend himself."
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/socrates.htm

[Cypress]

"Not believing in the gods of the State" is not the same thing as having an all powerful state religion in which the gods dictate epistemological reality, and confer dogma about metaphysical questions.

The pantheon of Greek Olympian gods - who generally were thought to not bother much with the affairs of humans, let alone provide them answers to metaphysical questions - was at least in part what contributed to the atmosphere of Greece where philosophy and critical inquiry emerged in a way it never had in other empires of the ancient worlds.

That's not my opinion. Those are the conclusions of learned scholars of philosophy. They may or may not be right, but they have studied this crap far longer than I have.

[Jack]

"Ancient critics thought the Epicurean gods were a thin smoke-screen to hide Epicurus' atheism, and difficulties with a literal interpretation of Epicurus' sayings on the nature of the gods (for instance, it appears inconsistent with Epicurus' atomic theory to hold that any compound body, even a god, could be immortal) have led some scholars to conjecture that Epicurus' 'gods' are thought-constructs, and exist only in human minds as idealizations, i.e., the gods exist, but only as projections of what the most blessed life would be."
https://www.iep.utm.edu/epicur/

Being an 'Enemy of the State' is always a bad idea. Sometimes 'caution' is the better Path to follow.

[Cypress]

Also, I am pretty sure Socrates was executed for political reasons.

The official reasons the authorities gave (aka, corruption of the youth, not believing in the Olympian gods) were legal cover for what probably amounted to a political execution.

[Jack]

"Thomas More’s Utopia, a book that will be 500 years old next year, is astonishingly radical stuff. Not many lord chancellors of England have denounced private property, advocated a form of communism and described the current social order as a “conspiracy of the rich”. Such men, the book announces, are “greedy, unscrupulous and useless”. There are a great number of noblemen, More complains, who live like drones on the labour of others. Tenants are evicted so that “one insatiable glutton and accursed plague of his native land” may consolidate his fields. Monarchs, he argues, would do well to swear at their inauguration never to have more than 1,000lbs of gold in their coffers. Perhaps this is one reason why Utopia is not bedside reading in Buckingham Palace. Instead of being worshipped, gold and silver should, he suggests, be used to make chamber pots. War is fit only for beasts, and standing armies should be disbanded. Labour should be reduced to a minimum, though the TUC might balk at the suggestion that workers would use some of their leisure time to attend public lectures before daybreak."
https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...terry-eagleton

Here's a guy that had to worry about being burnt at the stake by the Church, and worry about having his head cut off by the State. (Take comfort in the fact that the State is sweeping up all your electronic information and storing it in a warehouse in Utah)

[Mason Michaels]

"Thomas More’s Utopia, a book that will be 500 years old next year, is astonishingly radical stuff. Not many lord chancellors of England have denounced private property, advocated a form of communism and described the current social order as a “conspiracy of the rich”. Such men, the book announces, are “greedy, unscrupulous and useless”. There are a great number of noblemen, More complains, who live like drones on the labour of others. Tenants are evicted so that “one insatiable glutton and accursed plague of his native land” may consolidate his fields. Monarchs, he argues, would do well to swear at their inauguration never to have more than 1,000lbs of gold in their coffers. Perhaps this is one reason why Utopia is not bedside reading in Buckingham Palace. Instead of being worshipped, gold and silver should, he suggests, be used to make chamber pots. War is fit only for beasts, and standing armies should be disbanded. Labour should be reduced to a minimum, though the TUC might balk at the suggestion that workers would use some of their leisure time to attend public lectures before daybreak."
https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...terry-eagleton

Here's a guy that had to worry about being burnt at the stake by the Church, and worry about having his head cut off by the State. (Take comfort in the fact that the State is sweeping up all your electronic information and storing it in a warehouse in Utah)

Corporate Capitalism is the root of all evil!

[Cypress]

"Thomas More’s Utopia, a book that will be 500 years old next year, is astonishingly radical stuff. Not many lord chancellors of England have denounced private property, advocated a form of communism and described the current social order as a “conspiracy of the rich”. Such men, the book announces, are “greedy, unscrupulous and useless”. There are a great number of noblemen, More complains, who live like drones on the labour of others. Tenants are evicted so that “one insatiable glutton and accursed plague of his native land” may consolidate his fields. Monarchs, he argues, would do well to swear at their inauguration never to have more than 1,000lbs of gold in their coffers. Perhaps this is one reason why Utopia is not bedside reading in Buckingham Palace. Instead of being worshipped, gold and silver should, he suggests, be used to make chamber pots. War is fit only for beasts, and standing armies should be disbanded. Labour should be reduced to a minimum, though the TUC might balk at the suggestion that workers would use some of their leisure time to attend public lectures before daybreak."
https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...terry-eagleton

Here's a guy that had to worry about being burnt at the stake by the Church, and worry about having his head cut off by the State. (Take comfort in the fact that the State is sweeping up all your electronic information and storing it in a warehouse in Utah)

I should learn more about Thomas Moore.

The Christianity of medieval western Europe was certainly an enemy of skeptical inquiry and free will. Though I think the forward-thinking Charlemagne started to counter act that to some extent.

From what I am understanding, the thing that was remarkable about the Greeks is that while they had religion and ceremony, they did not confer upon the priesthood any kind of epistemological authority. And that is exactly what gave men from Protagaras to Socrates to Plato the environment to pursue knowledge on secular terms - not mystical religious terms. It's a plausible theory that to me makes eminent sense.

[Tkaffen]

Obviously your unemployed and spend all your time on this forum

[Phantasmal]

I should learn more about Thomas Moore.

The Christianity of medieval western Europe was certainly an enemy of skeptical inquiry and free will. Though I think the forward-thinking Charlemagne started to counter act that to some extent.

From what I am understanding, the thing that was remarkable about the Greeks is that while they had religion and ceremony, they did not confer upon the priesthood any kind of epistemological authority. And that is exactly what gave men from Protagaras to Socrates to Plato the environment to pursue knowledge on secular terms - not mystical religious terms. It's a plausible theory that to me makes eminent sense.

My observation is that trouble starts for the governed when politics and religion are bed fellows.

[Cypress]

My observation is that trouble starts for the governed when politics and religion are bed fellows.

It never seems to end well, does it?

[Phantasmal]

It never seems to end well, does it?

The majority of the Founders believed it.

[Cypress]

The majority of the Founders believed it.

Yes, and on that tangent First Amendment seems to be the liberals favorite.

Second amendment is the favorite of conservatives.


Unsurprising, really.

[Jack]

I should learn more about Thomas Moore.

The Christianity of medieval western Europe was certainly an enemy of skeptical inquiry and free will. Though I think the forward-thinking Charlemagne started to counter act that to some extent.

From what I am understanding, the thing that was remarkable about the Greeks is that while they had religion and ceremony, they did not confer upon the priesthood any kind of epistemological authority. And that is exactly what gave men from Protagaras to Socrates to Plato the environment to pursue knowledge on secular terms - not mystical religious terms. It's a plausible theory that to me makes eminent sense.

"nspiring, provocative, prophetic, and enigmatic, Utopia is the literary masterpiece of a visionary statesman and one of the most influential books of the modern world."
http://books.wwnorton.com/books/webad.aspx?id=17158

Get the Norton Critical Series version. The 'Tale' is fanciful and ridiculous on the surface. But a number of critical scholars delve into why Thomas More had to write the Tale in the fashion that he did. The Church could easily brand him as a Heretic, the State could easily brand him as a Traitor.

[Phantasmal]

"nspiring, provocative, prophetic, and enigmatic, Utopia is the literary masterpiece of a visionary statesman and one of the most influential books of the modern world."
http://books.wwnorton.com/books/webad.aspx?id=17158

Get the Norton Critical Series version. The 'Tale' is fanciful and ridiculous on the surface. But a number of critical scholars delve into why Thomas More had to write the Tale in the fashion that he did. The Church could easily brand him as a Heretic, the State could easily brand him as a Traitor.

Perfect description of him.