We need Socialism. Socialism Is A Good Thing. Socialism Promotes The General Welfare.

[PoliTalker]

Hello Evergreen58,

Wow! Thank you SO much for responding to me in a respectful intelligent manner!! It somewhat restores my hope that there are some people who favor Socialism but still respect other views. I read your reply and I need to go through it again later to digest it. I will respond later after I can do that. But if you believe in Socialism then you are a credit to those that do. The other person who replied to me told me this was not the forum to learn about Socialism. Why not?? I confess to being a "dyed in the wool" Capitalist. But I am open to learning. Why can't I dialog with others in a respectful manner. You made my day friend. I will respond again later.

I'm all for meaningful dialog.

I look forward to your next.

[NiftyNiblick]

The move away from public education is a move away from making America Great again.

Here PoliTalker and myself find ourselves in TOTAL AGREEMENT.

An educated population is the last thing that the corporate oligarchs want.
They benefit far too much from our not having that now.

That short sighted, immediate benefit view overlooks the far greater productivity we'd have with a properly educated work force
with everybody getting the KIND of education best suited to their strengths.

Everybody can't be a master pipe fitter or mason.
Everybody can't be a neurosurgeon or physics teacher.
All of those are absolutely essential for a strong America,
and all merit a comfortable standard of living.

It's just a matter of whether or not it's too late to save the Republic..

[Evergreen58]

I agree with almost everything that you have written. I agree that social programs are needed for those who CANNOT help themselves. One of my concerns is the use of social programs for those who WILL NOT help themselves.

I like your statement "We need a balance of capitalism for the wants; and socialism for the needs. That way, we take advantage of the best that each has to offer".

I also agree that there are corrupt capitalists. This is a fact. It is human nature. There are also corrupt socialists.

Your view that capitalism and socialism are both needed and currently coexist together is fine by me. If we stopped there then the discussion would be done. But there are many who feel that we should do away with capitalism and institute a socialist government. Not sure if you feel this way, but to me, this is where the discussion lies.

[Grugore]

There is a long standing Conservative Myth that we have to choose between socialism and capitalism. Some say socialism is like a cancerous disease that, once begun, grows and grows until it chokes capitalism to death and destroys the economy.

False and false.

Socialism is working very well in most industrialized nations. The USA is the only highly industrialized nation which does not have a socialist universal health care system.

We have had socialism in the USA for a long time now.

Even back when most Trump supporters would say 'America was great.' (the 1950's?)

We had social security and a minimum wage. Neither of those things is the result of capitalism.

The (socialism again) GI Bill saved millions of returning American vets from poverty. It allowed them to get an education, get a job, get a mortgage, get a home, and build wealth. (White Americans, anyway - blacks were redlined OUT of home ownership, the primary vehicle to wealth for most Americans.)

FDR: One of the greatest Presidents ever. He brought us through the big war, brought us socialism to save us from the ravages of Great Depression.

Socialism has lots of promises and benefits but socialism cannot be our only solution.

Capitalism is our primary wealth generator. Capitalism is a powerful engine of motivation and productivity.

How do we decide between the two?

That's a trick question.

We don't have to pick one.

We can have BOTH!

We already do.

The trick is to get the correct balance between the two. We just need the proper blend of capitalism and socialism. We can work jobs, pay into the system, and let the system take care of the needy. Everyone wins!

We need to be talking more and more about how socialism can work for us. We need to move beyond the limiting old Conservative Myths that are supporting the Class War and wealth extraction.

Corporations and the super-rich extract far more of our wealth than socialism. We need to face up to the facts here. The government doesn't want your money. The government uses the money it collects to do good, and always end up in the hole anyway. (because of the chintzy super-rich never want to pay enough taxes!) Corporations and the super-rich take your money and keep it for themselves. They take the government's money. They can't get enough. If you've got it, they want it. And they are very diabolical about getting what they want.

We need a socialist health care system. It is wrong for people to think of healing as a way to get rich. It is wrong for corporations to be making billions of dollars on the 'business' of providing health care. Health care in the USA should be a RIGHT. We can put a man on the moon; we can do this.

The capitalist model cannot work well for that because there is no way to have basic competition. Something happens and you're rushed off to the hospital, you don't spring up out of the gurney and say: "WAIT! I want to shop around and see which is the best deal in hospitals!" It's not like you're laying on the ground and waving off the first few EMT's because they charge too much. That's ridiculous. Who calls around to doctor offices for prices? "How much do you charge for treatment if I have a stroke?" No. That's ridiculous. Capitalism doesn't work for that.

We need Socialism in the USA.

If you don't like capitalism, you can move to one of those socialist countries you love so much. Go on. No one will miss you.

[Red Crow]

Yes .....

The USA needs Socialism

So we can be reduced to rubble like the other Socialist nations.

[Flash]

It is no surprise that Naples, Florida would have a newspaper critical of anything that threatens crony capitalist wealth extraction, ie socialism, in the form of criticism of Cuba. Naples, Florida is a very rich community, kind of like the Mar-A-Lago of the Florida west coast. (Private jets come and go with stark regularity.) It only makes sense to placate the super-rich by championing capitalism.

The narrative is familiar because it is framed as a choice between one or the other, capitalism vs socialism.

That's a false narrative, because the USA has successfully mixed capitalism and socialism.

Government assistance programs for the poor, the struggling, the hungry, the wealth-extracted have been wildly successful in raising the lifestyles of millions of Americans, and are responsible for creating one of the highest average standards of living for all Americans comparatively across the entire world.

The take-away is clear.

Mixing capitalism and socialism is the answer for a bright future for ALL Americans.

We don't have to choose.

So the Naples newspaper story about the Cuban woman has errors or untruths in it? Or, do you just question the story because of the source? Many of my conservative friends question NYT or Washington Post stories because they are "liberal" newspapers.

I think you what you are calling socialism is really social welfare programs. Our major industries are not nationalized which is the (economic) definition of socialism.

[Frank Apisa]

The take-away is clear.

Mixing capitalism and socialism is the answer for a bright future for ALL Americans.

We don't have to choose.

Hit that one on the sweet spot, Poli.

For some on the right, though, even the word "socialism" terrifies.

There are problems "capitalism" seems unable to deal with successfully.

There are problems "socialism" seems unable to deal with successfully.

An amalgam may be key.

CHINA...may be proving that right now.

It went from a third world nation to the second largest economy in a few decades after introducing elements of capitalism...while retaining large elements of a socialistic being.

[NiftyNiblick]

It's easy enough to say that we don't have to choose,

but until we realize that our two major social segments are never going to co-exist peacefully and productively,

we're thinking like so many unsophisticated children.

We have a social war.
There will be no compromise.
Somebody's got to win.
Somebody's got to disappear.
The factions do not belong living under the same government.

Wishing it were different cannot make it so.

[Frank Apisa]

It's easy enough to say that we don't have to choose,

but until we realize that our two major social segments are never going to co-exist peacefully and productively,

we're thinking like so many unsophisticated children.

We have a social war.
There will be no compromise.
Somebody's got to win.
Somebody's got to disappear.
The factions do not belong living under the same government.

Wishing it were different cannot make it so.

Interesting take, Nifty.

I hope you are wrong.

The change cannot come at a single swoop...and must occur as the result of initial mixing.

It will be gradual...or extremely bloody.

I vote for gradual.

[PoliTalker]

Hello Red Crow,

Yes .....The USA needs Socialism. So we can be reduced to rubble like the other Socialist nations.

Lots of socialism in Europe. Not Rubble. Socialism in Japan and Australia, too. Not rubble. Socialism in China. Not rubble.

We've had socialism in the USA for a very long time and we are very rich; a land of plenty. Although the plenty is mostly in the hands of a few, and we do have starvation and squalor (because of capitalism and the Class War,) fantastic riches do exist in the USA. With socialism.

The fact is that the USA is nothing like Venezuela. We are far larger with vastly more resources. The economies of the two nations are not comparable. Ours is the world standard for money. The most secure investment anyone can make is to buy US T-Bills. AND WE ALREADY HAVE SOCIALISM.

I have not heard a single poster here advocate for abandoning capitalism completely; nor going to a totally socialist economy or government.

Could you please answer this question:

Why can't capitalism and socialism be blended to take advantage of the best each has to offer?

Dare ya to answer.

[PoliTalker]

Hello Flash,

So the Naples newspaper story about the Cuban woman has errors or untruths in it?

No. I didn't say that.

Or, do you just question the story because of the source?

No, I don't at all doubt the story is true.

Many of my conservative friends question NYT or Washington Post stories because they are "liberal" newspapers.

Hey, if people won't believe the news then that's a breakdown of our democracy.

I think you what you are calling socialism is really social welfare programs. Our major industries are not nationalized which is the (economic) definition of socialism.

Bingo. And that's why I say we can mix that with capitalism just fine.

Look. This 'definition of socialism' thing has gone full circle.

Liberals: "We need a social safety net"
Conservatives: "That's socialism. Once that gets started it will destroy everything. After you run out of producers' money there will be no money for anybody."
Liberals: "Too bad. We've got the votes. Open wide. It's getting crammed down your throat."
Conservatives: "OK, but look out. We'll vote for the most extreme candidate we can elect. So there! Now look. We did what we wanted, and the economy is great."
Liberals: "Well, if the economy is so great then we can have more socialism. Now we see that capitalism and socialism can exist side by side and we can benefit from both!"
Conservatives: "No, they can't coexist. The social safety net isn't really socialism."

So .... Which is it?

I don't care what you want to call it; We can and need to have a growing social safety net as capitalism eliminates more and more income.

One day (mark my words) there will even be a Universal Basic Income. The government will issue an income to every citizen. And tax the super-rich heavily to pay for it. It will be so much easier than having all those government assistance programs and big bureaucracies. Artificial Intelligence is going to wipe out most jobs. But most people will not be able to afford their own robot to go do their work. So the profits will all go to the few super-rich who can afford the robots. That will eliminate most jobs. The robots will build themselves and repair themselves also. The big scare then will be if the robots decide they don't need humans any more. But as far as the economy goes, there will be a UBI or the economy will fail.

[PoliTalker]

Hello Nifty,

It's easy enough to say that we don't have to choose,

but until we realize that our two major social segments are never going to co-exist peacefully and productively,

we're thinking like so many unsophisticated children.

We have a social war.
There will be no compromise.
Somebody's got to win.
Somebody's got to disappear.
The factions do not belong living under the same government.

Wishing it were different cannot make it so.

I don't think it has to be that way.
We could just unite as many as will be bold enough to simply identify as American, whether they lean conservative or liberal, agree to disagree, try to work out compromises, and move on.
Those who refuse to talk will be excluded from the deal making.
We need more unity. Hate gets us nowhere. Neither side is going away.
We need liberals and conservatives who are willing to band together to fight the oligarchy.
The greedy rich are our common enemy. Those who share enemies can coordinate effectively.
We must spread that message far and wide until we overcome polarization.

[PoliTalker]

Hello again Evergreen58,

I agree with almost everything that you have written. I agree that social programs are needed for those who CANNOT help themselves. One of my concerns is the use of social programs for those who WILL NOT help themselves.

I like your statement "We need a balance of capitalism for the wants; and socialism for the needs. That way, we take advantage of the best that each has to offer".

Thanks.

I also agree that there are corrupt capitalists. This is a fact. It is human nature. There are also corrupt socialists.

Yes, absolutely. Agreed.

Your view that capitalism and socialism are both needed and currently coexist together is fine by me. If we stopped there then the discussion would be done. But there are many who feel that we should do away with capitalism and institute a socialist government. Not sure if you feel this way, but to me, this is where the discussion lies.

Agreed. We don't need to change the Constitution. I like capitalism just fine. We simply need to get more people paying attention. We need to have a stronger opposition to corrupt capitalism. If enough people simply wrote to their representatives we could give them the power to tell the corporatists to stuff it.

[NiftyNiblick]

Hello Nifty,



I don't think it has to be that way.
We could just unite as many as will be bold enough to simply identify as American, whether they lean conservative or liberal, agree to disagree, try to work out compromises, and move on.
Those who refuse to talk will be excluded from the deal making.
We need more unity. Hate gets us nowhere. Neither side is going away.
We need liberals and conservatives who are willing to band together to fight the oligarchy.
The greedy rich are our common enemy. Those who share enemies can coordinate effectively.
We must spread that message far and wide until we overcome polarization.

The wealthy right wingers are looking out for their best interests.
The poor ones are fucking stupid and enjoy shooting their own toes off, just to keep "niggers" and "spicks" in their place (using their words).
You're living a pipedream, PoliTalker, even though your intentions are good.

[evince]

we have to get back to agreeing on what is a fact


which means killing the propaganda founts like Fox "news"