Hi -- New here.

[Jack]

Sock thinks you're a sock, Jack. is that "name calling?"

Is it a "personal attack?"

We both know it is, how could she stoop that low, be so insulting? I will chalk it up to her being a Newbie.

[Legion]

Yes, for the reasons discussed. If you'd like a macroeconomic illustration, consider the Clinton era, when immigration rates were far higher than today, and yet job creation kept pace and unemployment dropped below 4%.

Cite the relevant statistics that prove that during "the Clinton era immigration rates were far higher than today, and yet job creation kept pace and unemployment dropped below 4%," sock.

Then identify which of BJ Clinton's specific actions improved the pace of the job creation you mentioned, and don't forget to show proof of a causul relationship. sock.

Naturally, I will completely understand if you can't.

Yes, it could well be.

So naked self-interest trumps compassion in your subjective personal morality, sock.

I took on lots of student loan debt to qualify for the jobs I fill. That's working out fine right now, because my average income is enough to make my payments easily.

So you say, sock. BTW, you don't fill any job right now, do you, sock?

If we let in a bunch of H1B immigrants with my same skill set, who had the benefit of low-cost foreign educations and thus could afford to undercut my price, I'd have a harder time. If we want citizens to invest in raising their productivity through education, then we don't want to create an expectation that the government will pull the rug out from under them after they do so, or people won't bother.

What's the downside, sock? Has the famous inscription on the Statue of Liberty been altered in your favor?

Yes.

Your position could be summed up as "open borders for thee but not for me," right, sock?

I don't resent them. I simply don't want them here undercutting the bargaining power of citizens. I'm fine with H1B visas if there's a genuine lack of skills in the domestic market, but then they should be very temporary.... after a set number of years, H1B visas should no longer be available to meet the need for that skill-set. That creates an incentive for home-growing those skills in the meantime, to meet the coming demand when the immigrants are no longer available to fill those roles. The goal of the government should be up-skilling the citizen labor pool, with the general tendency being to bring in immigrants who can slot into the bottom of the career ladder, not the top, to keep upward pressure and career advancement.

It appears that you do resent them, sock. Open borders are OK as long as you aren't being displaced in the marketplace, right, sock?

[Eagle_Eye]

Legion.

Thanks, I enjoy a debate when both sides are willing give and take. Sadly that is almost impossible here.

[Legion]

We both know it is, how could she stoop that low, be so insulting? I will chalk it up to her being a Newbie.

"She" isn't a "newbie," though, is "she," Jack?

[Legion]

Thanks, I enjoy a debate when both sides are willing give and take. Sadly that is almost impossible here.

Awww. Did you enjoy the sock's backhanded compliment, Grumps?

[Oneuli]

You referred to a hypothetical situation, sock. Not an accusation, as was formerly the case, sock.

It is a personal attack, obviously. Strange I'd have to spell it out to you yet again.

[Legion]

:0 Me and Legina have nothing in common. (I will disregard your personal attack and insult upon me)

Poor sock. Will nobody rise up like a knight in whining armor to defend the delicate "damsel?"

[Legion]

It is a personal attack, obviously. Strange I'd have to spell it out to you yet again.

Your repetitive insistence isn't convincing, sock.

Do you find that repeating an illogical argument works for you in other arenas, sock?

[Jack]

Yes, for the reasons discussed. If you'd like a macroeconomic illustration, consider the Clinton era, when immigration rates were far higher than today, and yet job creation kept pace and unemployment dropped below 4%.



Yes, it could well be. I took on lots of student loan debt to qualify for the jobs I fill. That's working out fine right now, because my average income is enough to make my payments easily. But, in theory, if we let in a bunch of H1B immigrants with my same skill set, who had the benefit of low-cost foreign educations and thus could afford to undercut my price, I'd have a harder time. If we want citizens to invest in raising their productivity through education, then we don't want to create an expectation that the government will pull the rug out from under them after they do so, or people won't bother.



Yes.



No, I don't resent them. I simply don't want them here undercutting the bargaining power of citizens. I'm fine with H1B visas if there's a genuine lack of skills in the domestic market, but then they should be very temporary.... after a set number of years, H1B visas should no longer be available to meet the need for that skill-set. That creates an incentive for home-growing those skills in the meantime, to meet the coming demand when the immigrants are no longer available to fill those roles. The goal of the government should be up-skilling the citizen labor pool, with the general tendency being to bring in immigrants who can slot into the bottom of the career ladder, not the top, to keep upward pressure and career advancement.

1. When was Clinton President? How many years ago was that? Robotics and Automation are accelerating geometrically.
2. "But, in theory, if we let in a bunch of H1B immigrants with my same skill set, who had the benefit of low-cost foreign educations and thus could afford to undercut my price, I'd have a harder time."
Jack: Wow! Congratulations. Can you carry that SAME logic to other Americans being 'replaced' by Foreign Labor?

Legina: "You want millions of low-skill immigrants to flood the labor market...."
Oneuli: "Yes."

Legina: "but resent any with the skills to take any jobs you might want...."
Oneuli: "No, I don't resent them. I simply don't want them here undercutting the bargaining power of citizens."

Hmmmmm ... odd you don't recognize your Elitist position on this.

[Jack]

"She" isn't a "newbie," though, is "she," Jack?

I think she is. She's a Fresh Face (maybe some 400 pound guy sitting on a bed in Queens) expressing herself with concise answers. It's EXTREMELY impressive.

[Legion]

:0 Me and Legina have nothing in common.

Say not so, dear Jack!

We are both discerning identifiers of socks, for one thing.

[Legion]

I think she is. She's a Fresh Face (maybe some 400 pound guy sitting on a bed in Queens) expressing herself with concise answers. It's EXTREMELY impressive.

Wow, Jack.

[Oneuli]

Appreciate your honest response.

1. If the Future holds that LESS humans will be needed (for the higher paying jobs like Manufacturing) there will be LESS people in the Middle Class to hire the 'low end skilled Labor'.

The advantage of immigrant labor is that it's flexible. If the demand is there for low end labor, then people come in to meet that demand. If the demand isn't there, then people don't come in -- they go somewhere else that there is labor. I'm not saying we should forcibly abduct people and bring them in on slave ships to do our work for us. I'm saying we should have a fairly open door for low-end immigrants who want to come here and meet existing demand.

Jack: I agree with this. But I could also see the benefit in widening the 'gene pool' in highly technical jobs.

I'd like to hear more about what you mean by that.

Jack: Great for 'Employers who want to exploit Foreign Labor, ... then eject them from the Country when unneeded. I expect this concept to be part of a Republican 'Immigration Plan'.

So long as those immigrant laborers have it better than they would had they not come here, wouldn't that still be an improvement for them? Is their suffering somehow more problematic when it's here than when it's "out of sight, out of mind?"

Is the Benefit of importing cheap Foreign Labor now, offset by the cost of a UBI (Universal Basic Income) in the Future?

I hadn't thought about those two things together. Could you explain more what you mean by that question?

Will the short term benefit be crushed by a long term drain on the economy of the Future that is based on robotics and automation?

I think the short- and medium-term problem is a big enough consideration that we'd do well to focus on it first. We are going to have waaaay too few working-age residents per retiree for the next quarter century. So, we should deal with that. Longer-term, those immigrants we bring in will tend to integrate and can give rise to an echo generation of highly successful children of immigrants (traditionally the most productive citizens).

I just don't see much downside. Generation one comes in and pays its dues with the crap jobs (but less crap than the alternative if they hadn't been admitted), fixing our demographic balance and enhancing the quality of life of existing citizens. Then generation two gives us the combined benefit of native-born-citizen cultural fluency, and immigrant work ethic. It seems like a win-win to me.

[Oneuli]

:0 Me and Legina have nothing in common. (I will disregard your personal attack and insult upon me)

Well, Legion asked the question, I responded to that without answering it, and then you responded to what I'd posted by asking why I hadn't answered your question. That appeared to indicate that you were identifying Legion's question as having come from you. I assumed your confusion was because you were two log-ins for the same user. Is that not right?

[Eagle_Eye]

Awww. Did you enjoy the sock's backhanded compliment, Grumps?

I didn't miss the little dig, I will give her a chance to prove she is either being sincere or a typical hysterical liberal bending which way the wind blows.