Members banned from this thread: evince, archives, Nomad, Micawber, ThatOwlWoman, Jade Dragon and Nordberg


Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Hydrogen fuel breakthrough in Queensland could fire up massive new export market

  1. #1 | Top
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    64,175
    Thanks
    22,285
    Thanked 15,189 Times in 12,138 Posts
    Groans
    11,381
    Groaned 3,158 Times in 2,987 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10

    Exclamation Hydrogen fuel breakthrough in Queensland could fire up massive new export market

    This could become massive and provide a cheap pathway to hydrogen powered cars. Transporting ammonia instead of hydrogen allows much greater economies of scale.


    Two cars powered by hydrogen derived from ammonia will be tested in Brisbane today thanks to a Queensland breakthrough that CSIRO researchers say could turn Australia into a renewable energy superpower.

    Key points:
    Australian fuel could soon be in high demand for hydrogen-powered cars across Asia
    It's the first time hydrogen cars have been powered with a fuel derived from ammonia
    Both Toyota and Hyundai have invested millions of dollars into hydrogen-powered cars

    CSIRO principal research scientist Michael Dolan said it was a very exciting day for a project that has been a decade in the making.
    "We started out with what we thought was a good idea, it is exciting to see it on the cusp of commercial deployment," he said.
    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-0...14?pfmredir=sm
    In rejecting their view [Spinoza, Leibnitz and Hegel], as I shall contend that we must, we are committing ourselves to the opinion that “truth” in empirical material has a meaning different from that which it bears in logic and mathematics.”

    Bertrand Russell, “An Inquiry Into Meaning & Truth” (1940)

  2. #2 | Top
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,870
    Thanks
    228
    Thanked 1,090 Times in 819 Posts
    Groans
    22
    Groaned 81 Times in 80 Posts

    Default

    Those interested in this topic may also be interested in

    The Hydrogen Economy:
    author Jeremy Rifkin

    Rifkin mentions that the trend is toward lower & lower carbon emissions, and that Hydrogen fuel is Carbon zero.

    At the time of publication, Hydrogen was an energy transfer medium, NOT an energy source, unlike petroleum-based fuels.
    At the time of publication, only about 70% of the energy used to generate the Hydrogen is recovered when the fuel is consumed.

    Increasing that to near 100% efficiency, and Hydrogen is substantially closer to being a widely used fuel for automotive and residential purposes.

    But there are still other technological problems, such as how to store and transport Hydrogen.

    BUT !!

    Those are engineering problems.
    And the fabulous thing about engineering problems is, they have engineering solutions.
    "It should be obvious to anyone why conservatives and libertarians should be against Trump. He has no grounding in belief. No core philosophy. No morals. No loyalty. No curiosity. No empathy and no understanding. He demands personal loyalty and not loyalty to the nation. His only core belief is in his own superiority to everyone else. His only want is exercise more and more personal power." smb / purveyor of fact 18/03/18

  3. #3 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    10,972
    Thanks
    4,142
    Thanked 5,405 Times in 3,715 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 287 Times in 281 Posts

    Default

    Is this more about the proprietary membrane technology? Why ship ammonia, when they can sell the membrane tech?
    Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

  4. #4 | Top
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    64,175
    Thanks
    22,285
    Thanked 15,189 Times in 12,138 Posts
    Groans
    11,381
    Groaned 3,158 Times in 2,987 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sear View Post
    Those interested in this topic may also be interested in

    The Hydrogen Economy:
    author Jeremy Rifkin

    Rifkin mentions that the trend is toward lower & lower carbon emissions, and that Hydrogen fuel is Carbon zero.

    At the time of publication, Hydrogen was an energy transfer medium, NOT an energy source, unlike petroleum-based fuels.
    At the time of publication, only about 70% of the energy used to generate the Hydrogen is recovered when the fuel is consumed.

    Increasing that to near 100% efficiency, and Hydrogen is substantially closer to being a widely used fuel for automotive and residential purposes.

    But there are still other technological problems, such as how to store and transport Hydrogen.

    BUT !!

    Those are engineering problems.
    And the fabulous thing about engineering problems is, they have engineering solutions.
    The article discusses the conversion of hydrogen to ammonia for bulk transport.
    In rejecting their view [Spinoza, Leibnitz and Hegel], as I shall contend that we must, we are committing ourselves to the opinion that “truth” in empirical material has a meaning different from that which it bears in logic and mathematics.”

    Bertrand Russell, “An Inquiry Into Meaning & Truth” (1940)

  5. #5 | Top
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    64,175
    Thanks
    22,285
    Thanked 15,189 Times in 12,138 Posts
    Groans
    11,381
    Groaned 3,158 Times in 2,987 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Is this more about the proprietary membrane technology? Why ship ammonia, when they can sell the membrane tech?
    I don't understand what you're asking me. The whole point is to convert hydrogen to ammonia to allow it to be bulk shipped far more cheaply, the membrane is then used to convert the ammonia back to hydrogen prior to use, typically at the point of sale.
    In rejecting their view [Spinoza, Leibnitz and Hegel], as I shall contend that we must, we are committing ourselves to the opinion that “truth” in empirical material has a meaning different from that which it bears in logic and mathematics.”

    Bertrand Russell, “An Inquiry Into Meaning & Truth” (1940)

  6. #6 | Top
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    11,964
    Thanks
    1,615
    Thanked 1,933 Times in 1,556 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 1,294 Times in 1,265 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Hydrogen is usually considered an energy carrier, like electricity, as it must be produced from a primary energy source such as solar energy, biomass, electricity (e.g. in the form of solar PV or via wind turbines), or hydrocarbons such as natural gas or coal.[2] Conventional hydrogen production using natural gas induces significant environmental impacts; as with the use of any hydrocarbon, carbon dioxide is emitted.[3]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel

    Aw, shit. More pollution.

    We should plant more trees- and go live up 'em.
    Prosemitism is racist.

  7. #7 | Top
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    64,175
    Thanks
    22,285
    Thanked 15,189 Times in 12,138 Posts
    Groans
    11,381
    Groaned 3,158 Times in 2,987 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by moon View Post
    Aw, shit. More pollution.

    We should plant more trees- and go live up 'em.
    Probably better if you live underground with the other Morlocks.
    In rejecting their view [Spinoza, Leibnitz and Hegel], as I shall contend that we must, we are committing ourselves to the opinion that “truth” in empirical material has a meaning different from that which it bears in logic and mathematics.”

    Bertrand Russell, “An Inquiry Into Meaning & Truth” (1940)

  8. #8 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    10,972
    Thanks
    4,142
    Thanked 5,405 Times in 3,715 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 287 Times in 281 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Havana Moon View Post
    I don't understand what you're asking me. The whole point is to convert hydrogen to ammonia to allow it to be bulk shipped far more cheaply, the membrane is then used to convert the ammonia back to hydrogen prior to use, typically at the point of sale.
    Yes. So why ship ammonia?
    Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

  9. #9 | Top
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    64,175
    Thanks
    22,285
    Thanked 15,189 Times in 12,138 Posts
    Groans
    11,381
    Groaned 3,158 Times in 2,987 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Yes. So why ship ammonia?
    Because it far denser than hydrogen.

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/...without-carbon
    In rejecting their view [Spinoza, Leibnitz and Hegel], as I shall contend that we must, we are committing ourselves to the opinion that “truth” in empirical material has a meaning different from that which it bears in logic and mathematics.”

    Bertrand Russell, “An Inquiry Into Meaning & Truth” (1940)

  10. #10 | Top
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    11,964
    Thanks
    1,615
    Thanked 1,933 Times in 1,556 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 1,294 Times in 1,265 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    And what would be the environmental impact of yet another unwelcome phase in the production of fuel for unwanted vehicles .
    Prosemitism is racist.

  11. The Following User Groans At moon For This Awful Post:

    Havana Moon (08-13-2018)

  12. #11 | Top
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    6,182
    Thanks
    537
    Thanked 2,323 Times in 1,767 Posts
    Groans
    183
    Groaned 163 Times in 152 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sear View Post
    Those interested in this topic may also be interested in

    The Hydrogen Economy:
    author Jeremy Rifkin

    Rifkin mentions that the trend is toward lower & lower carbon emissions, and that Hydrogen fuel is Carbon zero.

    At the time of publication, Hydrogen was an energy transfer medium, NOT an energy source, unlike petroleum-based fuels.
    At the time of publication, only about 70% of the energy used to generate the Hydrogen is recovered when the fuel is consumed.

    Increasing that to near 100% efficiency, and Hydrogen is substantially closer to being a widely used fuel for automotive and residential purposes.

    But there are still other technological problems, such as how to store and transport Hydrogen.

    BUT !!

    Those are engineering problems.
    And the fabulous thing about engineering problems is, they have engineering solutions.
    Techno-optimism not withstanding, I have read some things that indicate the hope is that they would eventually be able to get it to where you wouldn't need to have a hydrogen tank, rather a water tank and the conversion would happen as needed. I, of course, do not see that ever being allowed simply because the government which regulates vehicles has a vested interest in being able to tax your fuel.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Kacper For This Post:

    Althea (08-13-2018)

  14. #12 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    10,972
    Thanks
    4,142
    Thanked 5,405 Times in 3,715 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 287 Times in 281 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Havana Moon View Post
    Because it far denser than hydrogen.

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/...without-carbon
    OK...let me be more specific. It seems the secret sauce is the membrane. Why ship ammonia, when I'm sure it's readily available in most developed countries? Or is ammonia not such a readily available product?
    Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

  15. #13 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    10,972
    Thanks
    4,142
    Thanked 5,405 Times in 3,715 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 287 Times in 281 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    Techno-optimism not withstanding, I have read some things that indicate the hope is that they would eventually be able to get it to where you wouldn't need to have a hydrogen tank, rather a water tank and the conversion would happen as needed. I, of course, do not see that ever being allowed simply because the government which regulates vehicles has a vested interest in being able to tax your fuel.
    And our govt. is owned by Big Oil, among others.
    Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

  16. #14 | Top
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    6,182
    Thanks
    537
    Thanked 2,323 Times in 1,767 Posts
    Groans
    183
    Groaned 163 Times in 152 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    And our govt. is owned by Big Oil, among others.
    Big oil will adapt. They already are for the most part, except maybe the frackers. It is like big tobacco. It has been a generation since the settlements and they are still around and doing fine.

  17. #15 | Top
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    64,175
    Thanks
    22,285
    Thanked 15,189 Times in 12,138 Posts
    Groans
    11,381
    Groaned 3,158 Times in 2,987 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    OK...let me be more specific. It seems the secret sauce is the membrane. Why ship ammonia, when I'm sure it's readily available in most developed countries? Or is ammonia not such a readily available product?
    There is nothing in principle to stop cars, fuel cells and turbines being powered by ammonia instead. Fuel cells that utilise ammonia as a feedstock already exist so who knows?

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...014.00035/full
    In rejecting their view [Spinoza, Leibnitz and Hegel], as I shall contend that we must, we are committing ourselves to the opinion that “truth” in empirical material has a meaning different from that which it bears in logic and mathematics.”

    Bertrand Russell, “An Inquiry Into Meaning & Truth” (1940)

Similar Threads

  1. Market strategist Marc Faber under fire for racist remarks???
    By signalmankenneth in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-18-2017, 12:21 PM
  2. Marc Faber: Prepare for a Massive Market Meltdown
    By Pointgold in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-14-2012, 05:39 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-21-2012, 08:29 PM
  4. Free Market Fire Fighters to the Rescue
    By Timshel in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-12-2008, 06:20 PM
  5. Why Politics is Inferior to the Market in Choosing Fuel
    By Timshel in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 12-06-2007, 06:39 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Rules

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •