the ATF has some 'splaining' to do

President Mittens said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Bottom line: ONE screwed up sting operation in which heads should indeed roll does NOT invalidate the core reason and purpose for an entire organization to exist. You can beat that horse to death, but it won't change anything. As for the positive aspects of the ATF, do your own homework:

A unique law enforcement agency in the United States Department of Justice that protects our communities from violent criminals, criminal organizations, the illegal use and trafficking of firearms, the illegal use and storage of explosives, acts of arson and bombings, acts of terrorism, and the illegal diversion of alcohol and tobacco products. We partner with communities, industries, law enforcement, and public safety agencies to safeguard the public we serve through information sharing, training, research, and use of technology.

http://www.atf.gov/about/mission/
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I've done more than my fair share of 'homework' on the ATF. That's why I call for the abolition. You've yet to show a positive aspect in keeping an unnecessary and highly criminal regulatory agency.
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1) Outside of the latest screw-up, YOU have yet to provide anything outside of your personal opinion, supposition and conjecture that PROVES the ATF meets the criteria of a "criminal" organization.

2) Using the link I provided, please demonstrate to the reading audience just what is "criminal" about the ATF, and how it does not demonstrate "positive" aspects.

3) If you cannot meet a simple burden of proof for either of the above, just STFU or continue to blow smoke.
 
Good Luck said:
Originally Posted by President Mittens
I've done more than my fair share of 'homework' on the ATF. That's why I call for the abolition. You've yet to show a positive aspect in keeping an unnecessary and highly criminal regulatory agency.
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They help fearful, mindless, big mommy government twits feel safer. Do they need any other reason?

It does not matter that they fail miserably in their supposed reason for existing, since gun related crime continues unabated since their inception. It does not matter that they break their own laws which result in unnecessary deaths. (F&F being only one MORE example of their jack-booted incompetence.) All that matter is they are part of repressive government - but since fearful mindless big mommy government twits don't own guns, repression is therefore a good thing. You know, just like taxes on the OTHER guy is always a good thing.
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This is what I told your equally dim buddy:

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...-has-some-splaining-to-do&p=863509#post863509

When you're done parroting the cliches, slogans and all around BS that gunners love so much, try some honest debate on the subject. "Good luck" on that.
 
Liberty said:
Originally Posted by Taichiliberal
Right, because YOU didn't cash in those two handouts, err "stimulus" checks that the Shrub gave you during his 8 years, right bunky?

You are SO full of shit, Liberty, that even when you take a cheap shot to try and dodge the FACT that you couldn't get past me on one point in this discussion, it's pathetic. Carry on.
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Ouch!!!!

You're so Brutel.

What fact did I miss?

If you could help me out here by stating some facts, I'd appreciate it.

Maybe then I could respond in a way that makes more sense to you.
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Folks, just look at the following posts: #204, 206, 210, 213, 239 and 243 There you see that this Liberty lunkhead is not about honest debate, but just trying to be a pest hoping for a "got'cha" moment. This is the base for which the GOP depends on....God help us all. I leave the Liberty lunkhead to the accolades of his equally dim witted bretheren and to his parting shots of predictability.
 
Taichiliberal said:
1) Outside of the latest screw-up, YOU have yet to provide anything outside of your personal opinion, supposition and conjecture that PROVES the ATF meets the criteria of a "criminal" organization.
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Well that's because it's the original topic of the thread. I'd rather stick to it, since it can be considered an ACT OF WAR against a foreign nation, as well as an act of terrorism, not to mention literally criminal incompetence. But since you asked, there are several others. Such as the recent article STY posted, the criminal failure with the Branch Davidions, frequent uses of intimidation under the color of law, completely ignoring congressional mandates and attempting to enforce laws that do not exist (which they are currently being sued for)
EDIT: Almost forgot, criminal conflict of interests with regards to commerce.
2) Using the link I provided, please demonstrate to the reading audience just what is "criminal" about the ATF, and how it does not demonstrate "positive" aspects.
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Aside for the various constitutional breaches in their stated 'goals', quoting their own website doesn't give credence to anything. But then again you frequently quote yourself during a debate as though it's proof of anything. It's not, it's circular reasoning and is a massive fallacy.

3) If you cannot meet a simple burden of proof for either of the above, just STFU or continue to blow smoke.
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Gladly, which would you like to see proof of first?
 
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Sinn Fein said:
1) Outside of the latest screw-up, YOU have yet to provide anything outside of your personal opinion, supposition and conjecture that PROVES the ATF meets the criteria of a "criminal" organization.
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Well that's because it's the original topic of the thread. I'd rather stick to it, since it can be considered an ACT OF WAR against a foreign nation, as well as an act of terrorism, not to mention literally criminal incompetence. But since you asked, there are several others. Such as the recent article STY posted, the criminal failure with the Branch Davidions, frequent uses of intimidation under the color of law, completely ignoring congressional mandates and attempting to enforce laws that do not exist (which they are currently being sued for)
EDIT: Almost forgot, criminal conflict of interests with regards to commerce.

Since STY is just discussing this subject title case (unless you can produce otherwise), and all YOU can produce is the moot point of the failure to capture David Koresh (a major suspect in a murder and child abduction/molestation) that resulted in a fire fight and multiple deaths (a failure, but NOT "criminal"), all you've done is just repeat the same old collections of opinion, supposition and conjecture...YOU have NOT logically and factually proved your assertions.

2) Using the link I provided, please demonstrate to the reading audience just what is "criminal" about the ATF, and how it does not demonstrate "positive" aspects.
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Aside for the various constitutional breaches in their stated 'goals', quoting their own website doesn't give credence to anything. But then again you frequently quote yourself during a debate as though it's proof of anything. It's not, it's circular reasoning and is a massive fallacy.

Again, just what is "criminal" about the ATF....what SPECIFICALLY can YOU point to in the link I provided that is in violation of what SPECIFIC PART OF THE CONSTITUTION? I'm not interested in variations of your personal opinion, supposition and conjecture....either put up or stfu or continue to blow smoke.

Gladly, which would you like to see proof of first?
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See above responses. Carry on, bunky.
 
wow...SF.,...what do you have to say.....

this asshole revives a thread from February and invents a ridiculous accusation that Koresh was accused of kidnapping and molesting some young girl, resulting in the inferno that killed 76 people, including more than 20 children....and leaves the ATF out the of equation... when the ATF in responsible for the entire fiasco....I heard the molesting stuff before but not the abduction and there is NO PROOF of any criminal act by Koresh......
No matter, the ATF bears FULL responsibility for all those needless deaths ...... AG Reno should be in jail for that attack on American citizens that posed no danger to anyone....

The ATF made up the accusation, and proceeded to attack a private residence without a shred of evidence with fuckin' tanks and military armour over nothing....there was absolutely no danger to anyone ...the people inside the residence were there because they WANTED to be there...it was their home.....

and TC proves he is once again an asshole making excuses for pinhead Democrats....
 
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bravo said:
wow...SF.,...what do you have to say.....

this asshole revives a thread from February and invents a ridiculous accusation that Koresh was accused of kidnapping and molesting some young girl, resulting in the inferno that killed 76 people, including more than 20 children....and leaves the ATF out the of equation... when the ATF in responsible for the entire fiasco....I heard the molesting stuff before but not the abduction and there is NO PROOF of any criminal act by Koresh......
No matter, the ATF bears FULL responsibility for all those needless deaths ...... AG Reno should be in jail for that attack on American citizens that posed no danger to anyone....

The ATF made up the accusation, and proceeded to attack a private residence without a shred of evidence with fuckin' tanks and military armour over nothing....there was absolutely no danger to anyone ...the people inside the residence were there because they WANTED to be there...it was their home.....

and TC proves he is once again an asshole making excuses for pinhead Democrats....
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Someone take the beer out of Bravo's hand, because the drunken fool can't even read straight, as the chronology of the posts shows that it was SinnFein that brought up the Branch Davidian, NOT ME. And all one has to do is a simple research of the parents who were former Davidians who could NOT get the kids back from the group DESPITE a legal ruling to do exactly that.

Bravo makes claims and statements without a shred of proof to back them up...even when directly challenged to do so. Like his brother in BS Sinn Fein, neither can show the reading audience exactly what actions or listed mandates of the ATF are in violation of what specific parts of the Constitution. To date, neither can beyond their own opinions, suppositions and conjectures.

Like I stated time and again, I have NO problem with letting the guilty swing with regards to this disasterous sting opertion....nor do I have any problem with exposing any weasel tactics or cover-ups. I just call out the exaggerations and agendas of gunners who want to do away with ALL gov't regulation and oversight in any form when it comes to purchasing, carrying and using their weapons.

Now let's watch Bravo grind his axe while lubricating his liver and blood serum with that beer & wings.
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20108240-10391695.html

Secret recordings raise new questions in ATF 'Gunwalker' operation

The tapes were recorded approximately mid-March 2011 by the primary gun dealer cooperating with ATF in its "Fast and Furious" operation: Andre Howard, owner of Lone Wolf Trading Company in Glendale, Arizona. He's talking with the lead case ATF case agent Hope MacAllister.

The tapes have been turned over to Congressional investigators and the Inspector General.

The conversations refer to a third weapon recovered at the murder scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

Court records have previously only mentioned two weapons: Romanian WASR "AK-47 type" assault rifles. Both were allegedly sold to suspects who were under ATF's watch as part of Fast and Furious.

Also, a ballistics report turned over to Congressional investigators only mentions the two WASR rifles. The ballistics report says it's inconclusive as to whether either of the WASR rifles fired the bullet that killed Terry.

Law enforcement sources and others close to the Congressional investigation say the Justice Department's Inspector General obtained the audio tapes several months ago as part of its investigation into Fast and Furious.

Then, the sources say for some reason the Inspector General passed the tapes along to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona: a subject in the investigation. It's unclear why the Inspector General, who is supposed to investigate independently, would turn over evidence to an entity that is itself under investigation.

A spokesman from the Office of the Inspector General today said, "The OIG officially provided the United States Attorney's Office with a copy of the recordings in question so that the USAO could consider them in connection with the government's disclosure obligations in the pending criminal prosecutions of the gun traffickers. Prior to receiving the tapes, the OIG made clear that we would have to provide a copy of the recordings to the United States Attorney's Office because they would need to review them to satisfy any legal disclosure obligations."
 
Welcome to the party, pal

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/diane-dimond/fast-and-furious-atf_b_1021028.html

Who in their right mind would think using criminals to smuggle thousands of guns in to Mexico was a good idea?
Our Justice Department refuses to reveal the creator or cost of Operation Fast & Furious. Why?

What the hell is going on in this country? And why don't our federal officials just man-up and admit when mistakes have been made?

Now, keep in mind -- I don't write about politics so this is not a partisan attack. I write about crime and justice. So, take what I'm about to say in that spirit.

And remember the name "Fast and Furious" because I predict you'll be hearing a lot about it in the days ahead.
 
when you're about to be exposed...

circle the wagons and apply secrecy and censorship.

http://www.themoralliberal.com/2011/11/23/u-s-seals-court-records-of-border-patrol’s-murder/

The Obama Administration has abruptly sealed court records containing alarming details of how Mexican drug smugglers murdered a U.S. Border patrol agent with a gun connected to a failed federal experiment that allowed firearms to be smuggled into Mexico.

This means information will now be kept from the public as well as the media. Could this be a cover-up on the part of the “most transparent” administration in history? After all, the rifle used to kill the federal agent (Brian Terry) last December in Arizona’s Peck Canyon was part of the now infamous Operation Fast and Furious. Conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the disastrous scheme allowed guns to be smuggled into Mexico so they could eventually be traced to drug cartels.
 
http://www.azfamily.com/news/Ariz-a...rious-investigation-leaves-job-138196964.html

The head of the criminal division of the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Arizona if officially leaving his job.

Patrick Cunningham is one of several who have been under fire since the botched gun-trafficking operation known as Fast and Furious came to light. Those investigating Fast and Furious believe Cunningham had a significant hand in the decisions made during the controversial operation.

According to a letter to U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder from House Oversight chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA), the Department of Justice had "identified Patrick Cunningham as the best person in the U.S. Attorney's Office to provide information about Fast and Furious to the Committee."

When Cunningham summoned to go before the House Oversight committee last week to be deposed about his role in the operation, he invoked the Fifth Amendment, which is the right to not implicate oneself in a crime.

On Friday, Cunningham left the U.S. Attorney's Office for a job in the private sector.
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this makes me wonder if he can even be prosecuted now.
 
http://patdollard.com/2012/02/scrutiny-of-boehners-alleged-fast-and-furious-deal-grows/

looks like John Boehner is attempting to undermine a proper investigation of criminal acts and conspiracy by DOJ by a compromise of accepting the heads of DOJ higher-ups Lanny Breuer and Jason Weinstein along with assorted minor players. In return, the GOP would drop House and Senate committee investigations, giving Eric Holder and Barack Obama a pass on their involvement in the gunwalking scheme.
 
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