No support for idiots supporting terrorists

bravo said:
Yeah....and of course, everyone in every prison in the US is innocent and a victim of discrimination or police brutality or set up......
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the framers wrote the constitution with the thought that it was better to let 10 guilty men go free than to have one innocent man imprisoned. so you're 180 degrees away from the framers ideas of freedom.
 
bravo said:
Obama is assassinating US citizens with missiles overseas and you're worried about the military holding them indefinitely when cartured ????
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So now you think that very same president should have additional powers to hurt American citizens? Are you not seeing the gross disparity in your statement?
 
SmarterThanYou said:
and in doing so, we hand over the power to define what 'within reason' is to an entity that desires more power over us. stupid.

The Supreme Court of the US has ALWAYS had that power over us and still does ....get used to it, stupid

monarchy was used as a direct experience of the founders. substitute whatever term you feel like and it still works out the same.

There is no monarchy in this country....and no substitute, so it doesn't work at all....

i'm so fucking sick of people using this bullshit case as some historical reference to show rights are not absolute in direct contradiction to the words in the constitution. First off, 'no freedom is absolute' has NOT been the mantra since the birth of this nation. the case you're referring to wasn't until 1919 and it wasn't even about shouting fire in a crowded theater. It was a paraphrased statement to show a difference between two types of speech and it was a wrong headed statement at that. you can indeed yell fire in a crowded theater, especially if there's a fire.

I've no desire to explain the obvious to you.....sorry

this is another worthless example. the 2nd amendment was not about hunting or target shooting. It wasn't even about protecting ones self from criminals. It was written first and foremost to keep the people as equally armed as any standing army, because the founders knew from experience that standing armies are the bane to liberty. Therefore, the only reason people are imprisoned today for owning a machine gun is because the people and the government are frightened of citizens who can fight back.

Nice rant, wrong but nice .....your right to own a firearm was for you to protect your country and yourself.....thus the militia issue...protecting your freedom can easily encompass protecting ones self from criminals. "to keep the people as equally armed as any standing army" ?? thats about a stupid a remark as I've seen all day....do you think you have a right to guided missiles and an F16 ?.....making the issue below possible.
People are imprisoned today for owning a machine gun because, we the people, and the government have agreed that it is in the peoples interest to do so.....
I already told you how the Constitution is being twisted to mean things differently than first thought..after all, Obama is forcing you to buy health insurance and the pinheads love it....lets hope the SC saves our asses...

which doesn't mean that you get to have my hands cut off because you're afraid i'll punch you.
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Wrong again....what it means is your freedom to punch anyone is not absolute and is determined by circumstances.....quite simple to explain to even 6 years olds....
 
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Alias said:
Oh my, the lefties are not going to like anyone who wants to deny terrorists our rights. I mean, the left has fought hard and long for the right to defend terrorists. How can we deny their hard work?
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You can try that as an excuse, but the bill blatantly ignores the US Constitution. That this bill is even being considered is tantamount to treason.

American citizens (especially those on our soil) have been GUARANTEED the right to trial. The senate cannot override that basic constitutional right.
 
Emperor Septimius Severus said:
So now you think that very same president should have additional powers to hurt American citizens? Are you not seeing the gross disparity in your statement?
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I think if you let the first stand, why whine about the lesser of the evils....

Did you support waterboarding by the Bush ?.....Its quite similar, isn't it ?
 
Alias said:
I never said anything about "being able to arrest somebody on the shoddiest of probable cause". Is that what it says in the bill? Are you hearing voices?
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How would you know what the probable cause would even be?? This allows our government to hold american citizens indefinitally without a trial!

WTF? How can you claim to be an american and not think that this bill is terrible?
 
Alias said:
How long have you been allied with terrorists against the American people? Traitor.
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Him? He is a traitor??

You are trashing the US Constitution out of fear and the hopes for a false sense of security.

You are in favor of a bill that would allow our government to grab someone and ship them to Gitmo without a trial, a hearing or even giving a reason, and you call him a traitor??
 
bravo said:
I understand your point and sympathize....its a minor dilemma .....I'd rather have these terrorists kept under lock and key and rendered harmless if they are arrested in the US.......rather than just assassinated on the whims of a president or military authority.....the lesser of two evils....our justice system is too fucked up to deal with
terrorists crimes that could put millions in danger.....
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I am hoping this is just a knee-jerk reaction and that you have not thought this through. That you are willing to throw away one of our inalienable rights is doing far more harm than any terrorist could dream of doing.

Even you are not stupid enough to think this is a good idea. (at least I hope not)
 
WinterBorn said:
You can try that as an excuse, but the bill blatantly ignores the US Constitution. That this bill is even being considered is tantamount to treason.

American citizens (especially those on our soil) have been GUARANTEED the right to trial. The senate cannot override that basic constitutional right.
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If they are caught in an act of sabotage and killed, are we supposed to charge the ones who kept us safe for murder?
 
Alias said:
If they are caught in an act of sabotage and killed, are we supposed to charge the ones who kept us safe for murder?
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Nice strawman, but completely irrelevant.

This bill allows US citizens to be detained for as long as the gov't wants with (pay attention, this is the important part) NO TRIAL.

This means that all they have to do is accuse of being a terrorist and you can be jailed for an indefinite period of time without the right to counsel or to a trial.
 
WinterBorn said:
Nice strawman, but completely irrelevant.

This bill allows US citizens to be detained for as long as the gov't wants with (pay attention, this is the important part) NO TRIAL.

This means that all they have to do is accuse of being a terrorist and you can be jailed for an indefinite period of time without the right to counsel or to a trial.
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Yep, for as long as needed. I suggest you don't hang around any terrorists. That's what I'd do if I were you.
 
Alias said:
Oh, save your threats. Adding me to a target list is exactly what I want. Please come and get me. I can hardly wait. Looks to me like you're more of a threat than my govt is. You better be careful who you threaten around here. Some of us are serious.
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I am always careful. But I will say this. Many years ago I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I took that oath seriously, and still consider myself bound by it.

In order to defend the US Constitution from so blatant an attack, I would gladly join and armed revolution. Anyone supporting this bill is a traitor to this nation and an enemy of the same. You want to talk about taking things seriously? I take the US Constitution serius enough to have offered to give up my life to defend it.

As I said in the other thread about this bill, I think any senator who votes for this bill should be removed from office and tried for treason.
 
WinterBorn said:
I am hoping this is just a knee-jerk reaction and that you have not thought this through. That you are willing to throw away one of our inalienable rights is doing far more harm than any terrorist could dream of doing.

Even you are not stupid enough to think this is a good idea. (at least I hope not)
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Would there have been any reason to legally arrest, detain, or even question any of the 19 terrorists that carried out 9/11....?

They were legal....they broke no laws....they were not criminals....they were not wanted by law enforcement....

No...none.....we can't and won't even arrest, detain, illlegals that we KNOW are here against our laws.....

Given the same circumstances, those 19 could do the very same thing today as easily as they did it in 2001.....except today's laws are different and law enforcement and homeland security, the CIA and FBI and ATF have much broader freedom to act....
and as with all freedoms, they also know their freedom to act has limits....
 
Alias said:
Yep, for as long as needed. I suggest you don't hang around any terrorists. That's what I'd do if I were you.
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I would suggest you decide whether you want to follow the wretched refuse that wrote this bill or whether you want to be an american citizen. The two are not compatible.

And if taking up arms to insure every citizen's right to trial is what it takes, then that is how far I am willing to go.
 
bravo said:
Would there have been any reason to legally arrest, detain, or even question any of the 19 terrorists that carried out 9/11....?

No...none.....we can't and won't even arrest, detain, illlegals that we KNOW are here against our laws.....

Given the same circumstances, those 19 could do the very same thing today as easily as they did it in 2001.....except today's laws are different and law enforcement and homeland security, the CIA and FBI and ATF have much broader freedom to act....
and as with all freedoms, they also know their freedom to act has limits....
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And?? You want a guarantee if safety? It ain't happening in a free society.

Given the choice between freedom or safety, which do you choose??
 
WinterBorn said:
I am always careful. But I will say this. Many years ago I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I took that oath seriously, and still consider myself bound by it.

In order to defend the US Constitution from so blatant an attack, I would gladly join and armed revolution. Anyone supporting this bill is a traitor to this nation and an enemy of the same. You want to talk about taking things seriously? I take the US Constitution serius enough to have offered to give up my life to defend it.

As I said in the other thread about this bill, I think any senator who votes for this bill should be removed from office and tried for treason.
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Thank you for your service. Good luck with removing those who vote for it.
 
WinterBorn said:
I would suggest you decide whether you want to follow the wretched refuse that wrote this bill or whether you want to be an american citizen. The two are not compatible.

And if taking up arms to insure every citizen's right to trial is what it takes, then that is how far I am willing to go.
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I'll follow the wretched refuse American citizens that wrote the bill. I disagree with you that the two are not compatible. If they were "wretched refuse" then you might have a point. That's just your opinion. It would really be a tragedy for you to act with violence against the American authorities who enforce our laws. You might want to talk to someone before you do that.
 
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