The Bell Tolls for Obamacare

icedancer2theend said:
You are so fucking thick! Obama's HCB is NOT the same as any of those republican bills. There was no individual forced mandate. There were bills that would create co-ops for EMPLOYERS and small business owners. There were bills that allowed for interstate portability. But there were NO republican bill that forced individuals to purchase health care or be penalized! So yes, your refusal to talk about the specifics of the republican bills in YOUR link and instead revert back to your talking points that did not deal with the link YOU posted was a non sequitur!
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Did you fucking READ the comparison chart? The 1993 Republican bill had an individual mandate. The individual mandate was a Republican idea that goes back to the early 1990's and the Heritage foundation.

July 20, 1990 - Using Tax Credits to Create an Affordable Health System - Heritage Foundation

From the the 1990 Heritage Foundation article provided:

In return, government would require, by law every head of household to acquire at least a basic health plan for his or her family. Thus there would be mandated coverage under the Heritage proposal...

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What is in the 'Obamacare' bill:

Consumer Operated and Oriented Plans (CO-OPs)

The Affordable Care Act creates a new type of non-profit health insurer, called a Consumer Operated and Oriented Plan (CO-OP). These insurers are run by their customers. CO-OPs are meant to offer consumer-friendly, affordable health insurance options to individuals and small businesses.

The federal government is offering loans to non-profit organizations to help establish CO-OPs.
What This Means for You

By January 1, 2014, you may have the opportunity to buy health insurance coverage from a CO-OP for yourself or your family. If you’re a small business owner, you may be able to buy health coverage for your employees from a CO-OP.

In a CO-OP, your health insurance needs and concerns are a top priority because you and your fellow CO-OP customer/members elect the board of directors. A majority of these directors must themselves be CO-OP customers. CO-OPs must use profits to lower premiums, improve benefits, or improve the quality of members’ health care.

As an individual or small business owner, you may be able to join others in creating a CO-OP and apply for a federal loan to help get it started.
Some Important Details

By January 1, 2014, you may be able to buy a CO-OP health plan through a new competitive health care marketplace in your state, called an Affordable Insurance Exchange. You may also be able to buy a CO-OP health plan outside of an Exchange.
CO-OPs are required to meet the same state and federal quality and financial standards as other health insurance plans.
The health care law encourages CO-OP plans to offer better coordination of consumers’ medical care.

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Does the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Permit the Purchase of Health Insurance Across State Lines? - YES

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Small Employer Tax Credits

The Affordable Care Act helps small businesses and small tax-exempt organizations afford the cost of covering their employees.

If you have fewer than 25 employees and provide health insurance, you may qualify for a small business tax credit of up to 35% (up to 25% for non-profits) to offset the cost of your insurance. This credit will increase in 2014 to 50% (35% for non-profits). This will make the cost of providing insurance much lower.


Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
 
Bfgrn said:
Did you fucking READ the comparison chart? The 1993 Republican bill had an individual mandate. The individual mandate was a Republican idea that goes back to the early 1990's and the Heritage foundation.

July 20, 1990 - Using Tax Credits to Create an Affordable Health System - Heritage Foundation

From the the 1990 Heritage Foundation article provided:

In return, government would require, by law every head of household to acquire at least a basic health plan for his or her family. Thus there would be mandated coverage under the Heritage proposal...

------------------------------------------

What is in the 'Obamacare' bill:

Consumer Operated and Oriented Plans (CO-OPs)

The Affordable Care Act creates a new type of non-profit health insurer, called a Consumer Operated and Oriented Plan (CO-OP). These insurers are run by their customers. CO-OPs are meant to offer consumer-friendly, affordable health insurance options to individuals and small businesses.

The federal government is offering loans to non-profit organizations to help establish CO-OPs.
What This Means for You

By January 1, 2014, you may have the opportunity to buy health insurance coverage from a CO-OP for yourself or your family. If you’re a small business owner, you may be able to buy health coverage for your employees from a CO-OP.

In a CO-OP, your health insurance needs and concerns are a top priority because you and your fellow CO-OP customer/members elect the board of directors. A majority of these directors must themselves be CO-OP customers. CO-OPs must use profits to lower premiums, improve benefits, or improve the quality of members’ health care.

As an individual or small business owner, you may be able to join others in creating a CO-OP and apply for a federal loan to help get it started.
Some Important Details

By January 1, 2014, you may be able to buy a CO-OP health plan through a new competitive health care marketplace in your state, called an Affordable Insurance Exchange. You may also be able to buy a CO-OP health plan outside of an Exchange.
CO-OPs are required to meet the same state and federal quality and financial standards as other health insurance plans.
The health care law encourages CO-OP plans to offer better coordination of consumers’ medical care.

------------------------------------------

Does the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Permit the Purchase of Health Insurance Across State Lines? - YES

------------------------------------------

Small Employer Tax Credits

The Affordable Care Act helps small businesses and small tax-exempt organizations afford the cost of covering their employees.

If you have fewer than 25 employees and provide health insurance, you may qualify for a small business tax credit of up to 35% (up to 25% for non-profits) to offset the cost of your insurance. This credit will increase in 2014 to 50% (35% for non-profits).

This will make the cost of providing insurance much lower.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
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Yeah dickwad I fucking read it. You missed all the things in the Heritage plan that make it every bit NOT LIKE obamacare!

Using Tax Credits to Create an Affordable Health System Try reading it as it was written and not how you want it to be interpreted!
 
So every conservative is now supposed to like Obamacare because some lefties tell us it's the same thing as what some repubs wanted to do in 1993? LOL. Man, someone is getting very very desperate and it's fun to watch.
 
icedancer2theend said:
Yeah dickwad I fucking read it. You missed all the things in the Heritage plan that make it every bit NOT LIKE obamacare!

Using Tax Credits to Create an Affordable Health System Try reading it as it was written and not how you want it to be interpreted!
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I did read it. Did you SEE the part I posted? "In return, government would require, by law every head of household to acquire at least a basic health plan for his or her family. Thus there would be mandated coverage under the Heritage proposal"

Can you say MANDATE?

It also says: The Heritage proposal would lead to a radical change in Americas health care system.

RADICAL? Isn't that Obama and Democrats?

The TRUTH...privatization will only benefit the insurance cartels. NO private insurance company can operate at the efficiency of programs like Medicare...NONE.

Beginning in 1997, the growth in Medicare’s cost per beneficiary has been slower than the cost escalation in coverage delivered by private insurers. Between 2002 and 2006, for example, Medicare’s cost per beneficiary rose 5.4 percent, while per capita costs in private insurance rose 7.7 percent, according to MedPAC, an independent agency charged with advising Congress on Medicare issues.

So why would Congress create a new health insurance system that doesn’t have a Medicare-like public plan for consumers to purchase?

Because conservatives, Democrats among them, never let the facts get in the way of their ideology. The Senate, in particular, seems intent on creating a new private health insurance “cooperative” that has never been tested, has no track record of delivering quality coverage at an affordable price, and which consumers would have to learn to navigate.

Medicare is a leader in fighting cost increases. Private insurance industry costs are rising nearly twice as fast as those of Medicare. And when it comes to administrative expenses, private insurance is 10 times higher than Medicare. In fact, if the single payer financing of Medicare were applied to citizens of all ages, we would save $350 billion annually, more than enough to provide comprehensive health care to every American.

"Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
 
Bfgrn said:
I did read it. Did you SEE the part I posted? "In return, government would require, by law every head of household to acquire at least a basic health plan for his or her family. Thus there would be mandated coverage under the Heritage proposal"

Can you say MANDATE?

It also says: The Heritage proposal would lead to a radical change in Americas health care system.

RADICAL? Isn't that Obama and Democrats?

The TRUTH...privatization will only benefit the insurance cartels. NO private insurance company can operate at the efficiency of programs like Medicare...NONE.

Beginning in 1997, the growth in Medicare’s cost per beneficiary has been slower than the cost escalation in coverage delivered by private insurers. Between 2002 and 2006, for example, Medicare’s cost per beneficiary rose 5.4 percent, while per capita costs in private insurance rose 7.7 percent, according to MedPAC, an independent agency charged with advising Congress on Medicare issues.

So why would Congress create a new health insurance system that doesn’t have a Medicare-like public plan for consumers to purchase?

Because conservatives, Democrats among them, never let the facts get in the way of their ideology. The Senate, in particular, seems intent on creating a new private health insurance “cooperative” that has never been tested, has no track record of delivering quality coverage at an affordable price, and which consumers would have to learn to navigate.

Medicare is a leader in fighting cost increases. Private insurance industry costs are rising nearly twice as fast as those of Medicare. And when it comes to administrative expenses, private insurance is 10 times higher than Medicare. In fact, if the single payer financing of Medicare were applied to citizens of all ages, we would save $350 billion annually, more than enough to provide comprehensive health care to every American.

"Eighty percent of Republicans are just Democrats that don't know what's going on"
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Click to expand...

That's right IF they participated... What part of participation do you struggle with? In addition, what part of a health tax credit for the individual as a way to pay for their plan, as opposed to giving it to the employer, did you miss? This idea is NOTHING like the Obama plan!

The second central element-in the Heritage proposal is a two-way commitment between government and citizen. Under this social contract, the federal government would agree to make it financially possible, through refund able tax benefits or in some cases by providing access to public-sector health programs, for every American family to purchase at least a basic package
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And then there is this more recent proposal by The Heritage Foundation... which, by the way are NOT republican, but libertarian. That is to say, they are not members of congress, but an organization noted for their market friendly ideas and solutions. Unlike the Obama plan that wants to strangle business and our economy, their plan set out a way for all American's to participate financially in their own health care needs.
 
Alias said:
People like you are the enemy of the American people.
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People like you are the enemy of the American people. You are not an American. Don't spit on US by calling YOURSELF an American, you piece of shit. You have no right to call youself an American. You have no right to call yourself a human being. In seeking to kill Americans, and other humans, you have revoked both. You are an enemy, not an American.
 
icedancer2theend said:
That's right IF they participated... What part of participation do you struggle with? In addition, what part of a health tax credit for the individual as a way to pay for their plan, as opposed to giving it to the employer, did you miss? This idea is NOTHING like the Obama plan!



And then there is this more recent proposal by The Heritage Foundation... which, by the way are NOT republican, but libertarian. That is to say, they are not members of congress, but an organization noted for their market friendly ideas and solutions. Unlike the Obama plan that wants to strangle business and our economy, their plan set out a way for all American's to participate financially in their own health care needs.
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I wonder whether I should believe you or one of the principal architects of both the Obama plan and the Massachusetts healthcare plan, overseen by Romney?

Gruber said he understands the political motivation for Republicans to be trying to dismantle the bill.

"Look, if this succeeds, then Obama becomes F.D.R. This is the most important social policy accomplishment since the 1960s. And if this succeeds, this could be the kind of benefit to the Democratic Party that Social Security was. So if I was the Republicans, I'd be screaming and kicking and scratching to kill it too, on purely political grounds," he said.
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http://www.capitalnewyork.com/artic...-care-plan-fears-political-decision-supreme-c
 
Alias said:
So every conservative is now supposed to like Obamacare because some lefties tell us it's the same thing as what some repubs wanted to do in 1993? LOL. Man, someone is getting very very desperate and it's fun to watch.
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It's not 'lefties' telling you, it is Republicans, conservatives and right wing think tanks telling you that the Affordable Healthcare Act is a conservative idea based plan.

David Frum, George W. Bush speechwriter:

"Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994."

----------------------------------------------------

Bruce Barlett, who was a domestic policy adviser to President Ronald Reagan and a Treasury official under President George H.W. Bush:

David Frum, who has been fired by the American Enterprise Institute. I don't know all the details, but I presume that his Waterloo post on Sunday condemning Republicans for failing to work with Democrats on healthcare reform was the final straw.

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

----------------------------------------------------

Or how about THIS exchange during the Western Republican Leadership Conference Debate, where Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich tussled:

ROMNEY: Actually, Newt, we got the idea of an individual mandate from you.

GINGRICH: That’s not true. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.

ROMNEY: Yes, we got it from you, and you got it from the Heritage Foundation and from you.

GINGRICH: Wait a second. What you just said is not true. You did not get that from me. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.

ROMNEY: And you never supported them?

GINGRICH: I agree with them, but I’m just saying, what you said to this audience just now plain wasn’t true.

ROMNEY: OK. Let me ask, have you supported in the past an individual mandate?

GINGRICH: I absolutely did with the Heritage Foundation against Hillarycare.

ROMNEY: You did support an individual mandate?

ROMNEY: Oh, OK. That’s what I’m saying. We got the idea from you and the Heritage Foundation.

GINGRICH: OK. A little broader.

ROMNEY: OK.

How the Heritage Foundation, a Conservative Think Tank, Invented the Individual Mandate - Forbes

----------------------------------------------------

Here's an article that wraps it up:

Conservatives Run From the Individual Mandate They Once Embraced

The Heritage Foundation had its Emily Litella moment today. In an op-ed piece in The Washington Post, the conservative think tank acknowledged that it was once a true believer in requiring Americans to purchase health insurance. But now that a Democratic president has embraced the idea, “Never mind.”

I feel sorry for Heritage, and for Mitt Romney and other Republicans who are so furiously denouncing what they once fostered and embraced. The individual mandate has been the core of Republican thinking since the days of Richard Nixon, prized by conservatives as a way to keep the private health insurance industry alive and well, and to ward off Democratic demands for a public system like those in Great Britain or Canada.

In other words, conservatives promoted the concept of a mandate for decades because it wasn't socialism and, in fact, it would prevent socialism.

The mandate was seen, by many Republican theorists, as a reasonable alternative to a public option, with the great virtue of keeping the American healthcare system, at its core, a market-based enterprise. Nowadays, of course, such thinking will get you burned as a heretic.

The trouble for sentient conservatives is that, after years of fighting the Republicans, the Democrats finally embraced the individual mandate, and went ahead and passed the darn thing. Now everyone who knows something about American politics realizes that Obamacare is based on mainstream Republican ideas, especially the irate liberals who feel that Obama sold them out.
 
Bfgrn said:
It's not 'lefties' telling you, it is Republicans, conservatives and right wing think tanks telling you that the Affordable Healthcare Act is a conservative idea based plan.

David Frum, George W. Bush speechwriter:

"Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994."

----------------------------------------------------

Bruce Barlett, who was a domestic policy adviser to President Ronald Reagan and a Treasury official under President George H.W. Bush:

David Frum, who has been fired by the American Enterprise Institute. I don't know all the details, but I presume that his Waterloo post on Sunday condemning Republicans for failing to work with Democrats on healthcare reform was the final straw.

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

----------------------------------------------------

Or how about THIS exchange during the Western Republican Leadership Conference Debate, where Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich tussled:

ROMNEY: Actually, Newt, we got the idea of an individual mandate from you.

GINGRICH: That’s not true. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.

ROMNEY: Yes, we got it from you, and you got it from the Heritage Foundation and from you.

GINGRICH: Wait a second. What you just said is not true. You did not get that from me. You got it from the Heritage Foundation.

ROMNEY: And you never supported them?

GINGRICH: I agree with them, but I’m just saying, what you said to this audience just now plain wasn’t true.

ROMNEY: OK. Let me ask, have you supported in the past an individual mandate?

GINGRICH: I absolutely did with the Heritage Foundation against Hillarycare.

ROMNEY: You did support an individual mandate?

ROMNEY: Oh, OK. That’s what I’m saying. We got the idea from you and the Heritage Foundation.

GINGRICH: OK. A little broader.

ROMNEY: OK.

How the Heritage Foundation, a Conservative Think Tank, Invented the Individual Mandate - Forbes

----------------------------------------------------

Here's an article that wraps it up:

Conservatives Run From the Individual Mandate They Once Embraced

The Heritage Foundation had its Emily Litella moment today. In an op-ed piece in The Washington Post, the conservative think tank acknowledged that it was once a true believer in requiring Americans to purchase health insurance. But now that a Democratic president has embraced the idea, “Never mind.”

I feel sorry for Heritage, and for Mitt Romney and other Republicans who are so furiously denouncing what they once fostered and embraced. The individual mandate has been the core of Republican thinking since the days of Richard Nixon, prized by conservatives as a way to keep the private health insurance industry alive and well, and to ward off Democratic demands for a public system like those in Great Britain or Canada.

In other words, conservatives promoted the concept of a mandate for decades because it wasn't socialism and, in fact, it would prevent socialism.

The mandate was seen, by many Republican theorists, as a reasonable alternative to a public option, with the great virtue of keeping the American healthcare system, at its core, a market-based enterprise. Nowadays, of course, such thinking will get you burned as a heretic.

The trouble for sentient conservatives is that, after years of fighting the Republicans, the Democrats finally embraced the individual mandate, and went ahead and passed the darn thing. Now everyone who knows something about American politics realizes that Obamacare is based on mainstream Republican ideas, especially the irate liberals who feel that Obama sold them out.
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Alias is a strange dude, he has a very black and white view of the world. Perhaps he needs to smoke some more dope.
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
Alias is a strange dude, he has a very black and white view of the world. Perhaps he needs to smoke some more dope.
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Polarized thinking (very black and white) is at epidemic proportions from the right in America...the Fox News propaganda syndrome. But when you see what conservatives do to their own (Frum and Bartlett FIRED) for telling the truth, you can see why they are only fed 'group speak'...

I never get to debate or discuss opinions. Instead, I have to dispute propaganda they parrot as 'facts'
 
Bfgrn said:
Polarized thinking (very black and white) is at epidemic proportions from the right in America...the Fox News propaganda syndrome. But when you see what conservatives do to their own (Frum and Bartlett FIRED) for telling the truth, you can see why they are only fed 'group speak'...

I never get to debate or discuss opinions. Instead, I have to dispute propaganda they parrot as 'facts'
Click to expand...

Bill Maher has it right about Alias and his ilk. Our Conservatives would be classified as far left in the US.

 
Aoxomoxoa said:
Alias is a strange dude, he has a very black and white view of the world. Perhaps he needs to smoke some more dope.
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You're playing the bait and switch game. This health care bill is not what republicans supported in the 90s. This bill was shoved down the throats against the will of the people and you're trying to say it was the republican's idea. The majority of the American people are getting hip to your tricks. Not gonna work.
 
Alias said:
You're playing the bait and switch game. This health care bill is not what republicans supported in the 90s. This bill was shoved down the throats against the will of the people and you're trying to say it was the republican's idea. The majority of the American people are getting hip to your tricks. Not gonna work.
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The majority of the american people wish Obamacare had been stronger and sooner you dishonest retard.
 
Return of Dune said:
The majority of the american people wish Obamacare had been stronger and sooner you dishonest retard.
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Oh, for sure. That's why so many of your pals got tossed out of office last November. They were angry you didnt do more and did it sooner. Right. You must be one of the "intellectual heavyweights" around here you were speaking of.
 
Alias said:
Oh, for sure. That's why so many of your pals got tossed out of office last November. They were angry you didnt do more and did it sooner. Right. You must be one of the "intellectual heavyweights" around here you were speaking of.
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Incumbent presidents ALWAYS lose congressional seats midterm you fucking retard.
How many times must I tell you this?
 
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