Rule of Unintended Consequences

Dixie is obviously not one of the small gov conservatives. He must be of the large nation building wing of the party.
 
Dixie said:
Here's what I think we could probably do... have a bipartisan commission do a complete evaluation on all the programs and agencies affiliated with DoD, and target waste and redundancy. What actual percentage that would be, I have no idea... perhaps it would be in the neighborhood of 30-40%... but what we DON'T need to do, is glum on to some liberal anti-military emotive call to do an across the board blind cut of all military spending. That just doesn't need to happen, and it would be ignorant for us to make such a move. That's what the liberals want to do, hell, some of them would be giddy to see us completely dismantle the military altogether!

And again... regardless of where you are on thinking we need to cut military spending, whenever we do make those cuts, it will mean people lose their jobs and bases close. I am not so sure that NOW is the time you want to do that, maybe after we get the economy going again... then we can talk about it. Right now, the liberals want you to buy in to this idea that cutting military spending is the answer to our deficit problem, when it simply isn't. As I pointed out before, you could completely defund the entire military, and it wouldn't pay for 1/2 of the DEFICIT for 1 year in Obama's budget. This is a demagogue, plain and simple.
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"And again... regardless of where you are on thinking we need to cut military spending, whenever we do make those cuts, it will mean people lose their jobs and bases close."

No, it does not have to mean that. Take the 30,000 soldiers coming back from Afghanistan and have them build roads and schools HERE! Train them to police the crime-ridden areas of inner cities. If they can drive a HumVee they can drive a mini-bus and take seniors to hospital appointments. Freeze hiring except for those trained in specialized areas such as computer technology and other select areas.

Less armed service personnel will result in less need for equipment. Retool some of the factories that are currently making everything from boots to bullets.

No one has to lose their job.
 
Dixie said:
You asked specifically about two countries. I don't know what Japan and Germany would do. The Germans routinely vote Socialists into power, so in a sense, they are already aligned with the Commies, or at least, a good chunk of the public supports communism. Japan is a different story, but again... who do you suppose they are more likely to ally with, if we're not going to help them? Please keep in mind, I am not saying we need to spend billions in foreign aid, I posted this thread to discuss the Rule of Unintended Consequences. If we eliminate all foreign aid, there will be a consequence, what will it be? I just want to get you to thinking about the consequence, rather than emotively clinging to some radical idea you haven't thought through.

I can understand the isolationist sentiments, why should we squander our blood and treasure for these third world governments? All these years of trying to be the world police, have driven us to the edge of bankruptcy, and it's easy to see why people are angry about it. But everything we do is tied to some American interest, there is a reason for our involvement. We need to think about the consequences of withdrawing from the world stage. Our country is not self-sufficient, we depend on other countries around the world for all sorts of things, we import far more than we export. So what do you suppose happens, when the world blows up into war and chaos and interferes dramatically with our way of life? Can we deal with $25 a gallon gas? What about when North Korea or Pakistan starts hurling nukes at their enemies? Can we deal with the ramifications of that? I know it sounds like I am being dramatic, but think about it... there is a reason for US presence around the world, and we need to consider all the consequences of removing that presence before we do it. Go look at history, we've tried isolationism before, and it did not work! Now here we are, years later, a nation full of history illiterates who think the best idea in the world is to become isolationist again. That comes with a cost. There are always consequences.
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"The Germans routinely vote Socialists into power, so in a sense, they are already aligned with the Commies, or at least, a good chunk of the public supports communism."

So you are for One World Government and against democracy. Hmmm
 
Dixie said:
Tax PAYMENTS will be lower because not as much income was earned! Goofball! Obama didn't lower the tax rates! People lost jobs, businesses went under... therefore, not as much tax was paid.

I don't fear it, my money is secure. And for the record, it's $6.8 million. I think you need to amend your childish insult to "six-point-eight-million-dollar-man" because $200k is a lot of money.. you probably won't get that much in welfare over the next 10 years. Incidentally, it didn't start out at $6.8 mil, the actual amount I was paid for the patents were in the neighborhood of $4.2 million at the time, but since it was in Euros and the dollar has declined so much in value, when coupled with interest over the years, and a few other smart investment strategies, it has grown to $6.8 mil. Are you jealous? You need a loan?
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I'm just trying to figure out why you're still working when the wealthy don't have to work. :dunno:
 
Dixie said:
It's not cowardice to be conscientious. I am not afraid to jump out of a window because I don't believe I could fly! "What happens when..." is a way of trying to get you pinheads to THINK ABOUT CONSEQUENCES! As the OP says, we've adopted the Rule of Unintended Consequences, where we can do all kinds of crazy extreme shit with the greatest of intentions, and never consider the consequences... because AFTER the fact, when those consequences rear their ugly heads, we can look doe-eyed into the cameras and say.... We didn't know... We couldn't have imagined... We had no idea this would happen.... It's easy to take some extreme view on what should be done... ending foreign aid... tax the rich... make it easy for poor people to buy houses they can't afford... whatever... Then when things turn to shit, we can use the Rule of Unintended Consequences and say... well, we had good intentions, we didn't know this or that would happen as a result. Before we make rash decisions on some extreme draconian measure, we need to evaluate carefully, what could be the possible ramifications, what could be the consequence of our actions? That's not "cowardice" that is pragmatic and smart. But there is a shortage of "smart" among the pinheads.
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But we do know "what happens when" government medical is implemented. Medical care costs 1/3 less and people live as long or longer than in the US.

We do know "what happens when" the wealthy are taxed and social programs are implemented. Surveys consistently show citizens in such countries are generally happier and more content with their lives.

It's the Cons who claim they either don't know or continually misrepresent the facts. That, we also know.
 
Damn Yankee said:
Then by all means tell me what these mysterious reasons are.
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There is nothing 'mysterious' about the fact that all our foreign aid is given with some interest of the US in mind. Common sense should tell you this, no? Why else would we be giving money away? Just 'cause we have so much of it??? THINK MAN THINK! If we are committed to giving foreign aid to someone, don't you think there must be some legitimate reason we are doing that? I don't have to identify the specific reasons to know they must exist. Again, I am not disagreeing with your point that we should cut foreign aid, I am merely pointing out, there are ramifications and consequences, and there are reasons we are giving foreign aid, which are in our interests. Until we evaluate what those reasons are, and what the ramifications would be, we shouldn't just be blindly calling for an end to the aid... we should at least look at WHY we are giving the aid, and what vital interest it serves... if there isn't one which has merit or importance... fine, cut the aid... but at least examine it from an objective perspective first.
 
apple0154 said:
But we do know "what happens when" government medical is implemented. Medical care costs 1/3 less and people live as long or longer than in the US.

We do know "what happens when" the wealthy are taxed and social programs are implemented. Surveys consistently show citizens in such countries are generally happier and more content with their lives.

It's the Cons who claim they either don't know or continually misrepresent the facts. That, we also know.
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We also know that when you ram through a massive health care reform without bipartisan support, which burdens businesses to the point they don't know how much it will cost them to hire employees, they stop hiring people and no jobs are created in the private sector. Without jobs you have no incomes to tax, and without tax revenues, you can't pay for your entitlement programs.
 
Dixie said:
There is nothing 'mysterious' about the fact that all our foreign aid is given with some interest of the US in mind. Common sense should tell you this, no? Why else would we be giving money away? Just 'cause we have so much of it??? THINK MAN THINK! If we are committed to giving foreign aid to someone, don't you think there must be some legitimate reason we are doing that? I don't have to identify the specific reasons to know they must exist. Again, I am not disagreeing with your point that we should cut foreign aid, I am merely pointing out, there are ramifications and consequences, and there are reasons we are giving foreign aid, which are in our interests. Until we evaluate what those reasons are, and what the ramifications would be, we shouldn't just be blindly calling for an end to the aid... we should at least look at WHY we are giving the aid, and what vital interest it serves... if there isn't one which has merit or importance... fine, cut the aid... but at least examine it from an objective perspective first.
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With all due respect Dix, your logic escapes me. 'We are spending the money so there must be a reason'? :palm:
 
apple0154 said:
I'm just trying to figure out why you're still working when the wealthy don't have to work. :dunno:
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To have something to do, mainly. I don't HAVE to work. My annual income is less than $50k per year, so I don't pay a very high income tax rate. Now... if there was some way I could transfer my fortune to the US and invest in a business venture, I might be inclined to do that, if it meant I could make more money, but I make good money leaving it right where it is, and I live fairly comfortably on my meager income. If something happens that I NEED some money, it's available to me, I just have to pay the income tax on it. But as long as tax rates remain high, it will mostly stay right where it is, far away from the greedy little fingers of socialists like yourself, who think they can punish me for being wealthy.
 
Damn Yankee said:
With all due respect Dix, your logic escapes me. 'We are spending the money so there must be a reason'? :palm:
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Well, in a sense... yeah... how else do you think we managed to appropriate the money? Someone somewhere, found some justification or reason for us to do it, or we wouldn't have ever done it.... don't you think? Does it make sense that we'd just up and send some country money without any reason whatsoever? It doesn't make logical sense to me that we'd do that, does it to you?
 
Dixie said:
It doesn't take much imagination to realize consequences are the result of our actions. There is no action we can take on anything, that is without consequence. There is no "apocalyptic scenario" in the fact that if you cut military spending by 40%, people would lose their jobs, and it would effect the economies of a lot of communities which depend on that military spending. That's just straight up common sense... something you apparently lack.
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"There is no "apocalyptic scenario" in the fact that if you cut military spending by 40%, people would lose their jobs, and it would effect the economies of a lot of communities which depend on that military spending."

Here we go, again, supporting a government make-work project. If communities are worried about losing military bases keep the bases and have the personnel doing work HERE.

You support big government and One World Government and you don't even realize it.
 
apple0154 said:
"There is no "apocalyptic scenario" in the fact that if you cut military spending by 40%, people would lose their jobs, and it would effect the economies of a lot of communities which depend on that military spending."

Here we go, again, supporting a government make-work project. If communities are worried about losing military bases keep the bases and have the personnel doing work HERE.

You support big government and One World Government and you don't even realize it.
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Look moron, we've already addressed your stupidity about "retooling factories" and such nonsense as having uniform manufacturers convert to making free jeans and shirts for everybody. The bottom line is, when you make a 40% cut in the military budget, bases are going to be closed and thousands of people are going to lose their jobs. But hey.... if you have such a fucking hard on to do that, go for it! Let's gut the military and close the damn bases! Then we'll get to see the economic calamity it causes, and realize the ramifications of your ignorance... but don't try to blame it on Republicans when that happens, they weren't the ones who just HAD to make those cuts. And don't give us Biden with his Nancy Pelosi doe-eyed stupidity about how "we didn't know this would happen... we never saw this coming" because I am telling you right here and now, it's coming... it's what will happen!
 
Dixie said:
We also know that when you ram through a massive health care reform without bipartisan support, which burdens businesses to the point they don't know how much it will cost them to hire employees, they stop hiring people and no jobs are created in the private sector. Without jobs you have no incomes to tax, and without tax revenues, you can't pay for your entitlement programs.
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So how can a mom-and-pop diner afford to hire a dishwasher?
 
Dixie said:
To have something to do, mainly. I don't HAVE to work. My annual income is less than $50k per year, so I don't pay a very high income tax rate. Now... if there was some way I could transfer my fortune to the US and invest in a business venture, I might be inclined to do that, if it meant I could make more money, but I make good money leaving it right where it is, and I live fairly comfortably on my meager income. If something happens that I NEED some money, it's available to me, I just have to pay the income tax on it. But as long as tax rates remain high, it will mostly stay right where it is, far away from the greedy little fingers of socialists like yourself, who think they can punish me for being wealthy.
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Let me get this straight. I know you implied you are married. Do you have children living at home? Are you saying you have $6.8 million and are living on less than $50,000/yr?
 
Dixie said:
Look moron, we've already addressed your stupidity about "retooling factories" and such nonsense as having uniform manufacturers convert to making free jeans and shirts for everybody. The bottom line is, when you make a 40% cut in the military budget, bases are going to be closed and thousands of people are going to lose their jobs. But hey.... if you have such a fucking hard on to do that, go for it! Let's gut the military and close the damn bases! Then we'll get to see the economic calamity it causes, and realize the ramifications of your ignorance... but don't try to blame it on Republicans when that happens, they weren't the ones who just HAD to make those cuts. And don't give us Biden with his Nancy Pelosi doe-eyed stupidity about how "we didn't know this would happen... we never saw this coming" because I am telling you right here and now, it's coming... it's what will happen!
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Keep all the bases open in the US. Keep paying all the guys and gals in uniform. The only change is bring them home and have them do work here. Nobody will lose their job. However, US citizens will benefit from an extra 50,000 or 100,000 "free" employees.

Just imagine the difference it would make to communities and it wouldn't cost one extra cent!
 
apple0154 said:
Let me get this straight. I know you implied you are married. Do you have children living at home? Are you saying you have $6.8 million and are living on less than $50,000/yr?
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I said my personal income is roughly $50k per year. My home is paid for, my kids college educations are paid for, I have no outstanding debts, and I live fairly comfortably. If there is something I need money for, I transfer some over and pay the taxes on it... but I am a very modest person in terms of my lifestyle, I don't like to blow money, I am very frugal with it. I also have a sizable investment portfolio which earns residual income here in the states, real estate investments and other things, some of which, are tax deferred.

Here's the main point you need to grasp... IF someone came along and said, "Dixie, we're going to let you transfer your wealth back to the states, and we're only going to charge you 5% tax on the money IF you invest in some kind of business venture." I would probably go for it... I have had numerous offers to invest in things which are very promising, but the thought of paying out 36% on money that has already been taxed in Germany? Nope.. not worth it to me, I will leave it where it sits. This is the reality for a LOT of wealth abroad, it simply isn't coming back home again until tax rates are relaxed and it becomes advantageous for the owner to do so. As long as you persist with your 'class warfare' rhetoric, that is simply not happening in the real world, because rich people aren't stupid.
 
apple0154 said:
Keep all the bases open in the US. Keep paying all the guys and gals in uniform. The only change is bring them home and have them do work here. Nobody will lose their job. However, US citizens will benefit from an extra 50,000 or 100,000 "free" employees.

Just imagine the difference it would make to communities and it wouldn't cost one extra cent!
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Then you've not cut the military budget.
 
Damn Yankee said:
As I pointed out he consequences are zilch for Germany and Japan. With regards to the other foreign aid, the main consequence of slashing budgets is to force efficiency. I'm not talking about cutting a little, but at least 50%, and removing the top people who scream the loudest. That way the person who ends up in charge will be forced to prioritize and justify, then show results or the program gets cut in half again the next year.
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Let me put this in perspective for you... We currently spend about $60 billion per year in foreign aid. If we cut foreign aid out entirely... 100%... every penny to every country..... we've paid for the Obama budget deficit for roughly 20 days.... 345 more to go, what else shall we cut?
 
Dixie said:
I said my personal income is roughly $50k per year. My home is paid for, my kids college educations are paid for, I have no outstanding debts, and I live fairly comfortably. If there is something I need money for, I transfer some over and pay the taxes on it... but I am a very modest person in terms of my lifestyle, I don't like to blow money, I am very frugal with it. I also have a sizable investment portfolio which earns residual income here in the states, real estate investments and other things, some of which, are tax deferred.

Here's the main point you need to grasp... IF someone came along and said, "Dixie, we're going to let you transfer your wealth back to the states, and we're only going to charge you 5% tax on the money IF you invest in some kind of business venture." I would probably go for it... I have had numerous offers to invest in things which are very promising, but the thought of paying out 36% on money that has already been taxed in Germany? Nope.. not worth it to me, I will leave it where it sits. This is the reality for a LOT of wealth abroad, it simply isn't coming back home again until tax rates are relaxed and it becomes advantageous for the owner to do so. As long as you persist with your 'class warfare' rhetoric, that is simply not happening in the real world, because rich people aren't stupid.
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I'm not sure of the proper adjective to use but anyone with $6.8 million living on less than $50,000/yr is "unusual", shall we say.
 
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