If the US defaults, whose will the fault be?

[apple0154]

You know, I am about tired of you telling me I don't know rich people. I happen to know the richest man in Alabama on a first name basis, I have two friends from high school who are uber-wealthy now, and personally, I have about $7 million in assets, sitting in Germany as we speak. It is YOU who doesn't know any rich people, or anything about how rich people think, behave, or act.

YES... Some rich people might very well open the 5-guys plumbing or landscape business, or better yet, they might be 'angel investors' who simply provide someone with the resources to open such business... But they certainly WON'T be doing that if you are committed to taxing the living fuck out of every penny they remove from tax-free securities. Under those circumstances, they will keep their money hidden away, where you can't touch it, and that is where it will stay. That's what is currently happening in this economy.... how is that working for ya?

You're still caught up in some idiotic notion that rich people can't help their greed, they so want to make more money, that they will gladly forfeit a large chunk of it to the government for the opportunity. That may have been the case as they were becoming rich, but once they have wealth, why do they need to keep earning income? They can live very comfortably, have anything they want, and never have to touch the principle of their wealth... they don't NEED to go out and EARN INCOME! They might like to do that... They might get some personal enjoyment or gratification from it... but again, they certainly AREN'T going to do it if it means sacrificing a large chunk of their wealth to the government, they would be STUPID to do that. I gave a valid example with the $10 million... the guy would have to make more than $4 million, just to be back where he started! Rich people will look at that and say... Fuck it! I'll leave my wealth in tax-free securities for now, and hope Republicans ease taxation at a later date.

But hey.... Like you said... They still have to buy cars and caviar... they will still spend money and live their opulent rich lifestyles, and we will still collect tax on that money... But which way would we realize more tax revenue and economic growth? Rich person living off their wealth, paying $40-100k a year in taxes... or Rich person investing millions into new business ventures, where they stand to make billions of dollars which can be taxed? Think real hard dumbshit... which one of these would you rather have the tax collection on?

"....once they have wealth, why do they need to keep earning income? They can live very comfortably, have anything they want, and never have to touch the principle of their wealth... they don't NEED to go out and EARN INCOME!"

I explained that in msg. 78. The interest off their money would not allow them to "have anything they want". $10 million would bring about 1.5 million after taxes. You depict wealthy individuals as content, no ambition, no goals which is completely absurd. As they acquire their money they are exposed to and become familiar with a different lifestyle just like everyone else.

Let me dumb this down for you. A poor person sees their friend purchased a big screen TV. Now they would like to have one. A wealthier person sees their friend built a theater room in their home and wants one. The poor person, having never been in a home with a theater room, would be content with having just a big screen TV. The wealthier person is no longer content with just their big screen TV. Do you get it?

The same idea works with everything else. As one becomes wealthy they are exposed to more and more luxuries. The vacation on a Florida beach is drab compared to a vacation on Bali. The same thing that motivates an individual to become wealthy is what motivates them to want additional wealth. A person who has acquires $10 million is not going to be content living on $1.5 million.

And by the way, you're arguing against yourself. If you have $7 million in assets why not cash out and live off the interest? Leave the money in Germany, collect the 2% interest which would be $1.4 million/yr and pay tax on that. At 32% tax rate that would leave you $958,000 to live on.

So, the question is, "Why are you still working and paying tax?" You've told us over and over the wealthy don't have to work. So, you're either arguing out your a$$ or you are a liar. Please let us know which one so we can adequately address it.

 

[Good Luck]

"....once they have wealth, why do they need to keep earning income? They can live very comfortably, have anything they want, and never have to touch the principle of their wealth... they don't NEED to go out and EARN INCOME!"

I explained that in msg. 78. The interest off their money would not allow them to "have anything they want". $10 million would bring about 1.5 million after taxes. You depict wealthy individuals as content, no ambition, no goals which is completely absurd. As they acquire their money they are exposed to and become familiar with a different lifestyle just like everyone else.

Let me dumb this down for you. A poor person sees their friend purchased a big screen TV. Now they would like to have one. A wealthier person sees their friend built a theater room in their home and wants one. The poor person, having never been in a home with a theater room, would be content with having just a big screen TV. The wealthier person is no longer content with just their big screen TV. Do you get it?

The same idea works with everything else. As one becomes wealthy they are exposed to more and more luxuries. The vacation on a Florida beach is drab compared to a vacation on Bali. The same thing that motivates an individual to become wealthy is what motivates them to want additional wealth. A person who has acquires $10 million is not going to be content living on $1.5 million.

And by the way, you're arguing against yourself. If you have $7 million in assets why not cash out and live off the interest? Leave the money in Germany, collect the 2% interest which would be $1.4 million/yr and pay tax on that. At 32% tax rate that would leave you $958,000 to live on.

So, the question is, "Why are you still working and paying tax?" You've told us over and over the wealthy don't have to work. So, you're either arguing out your a$$ or you are a liar. Please let us know which one so we can adequately address it.

If a wealthy person is living off the earnings without touching their principle, then they have an INCOME. (fucking DUH!) Investment income comes in three forms: interest income (taxable), capital gains from the buying and selling of stocks, options, and commodities futures (also taxable, and at a higher rate than other forms of income), and dividends from the long term ownership of stock (not taxable).

Also, while uber-liberal wealthy asswipes like Patrick Kennedy may brag about never having a job in their useless lives, so they don't need a tax cut, most wealthy people are wealthy - and stay wealthy - because they WORK - and work hard, probably a lot harder than the "little" guys uber liberal feel the wealthy are supposed to be supporting. Most of those the envy-ridden liberal twits label as wealthy own businesses. And most of those put in 60+ hour work weeks running their businesses.

Oh, and income derived from the operation of businesses is also taxable.

Maybe people with $7M saved up don't kick back and live off the interest their money can generate because they don't believe in lives of idle sloth. They believe in working and being productive members of society. The whole "the world owes me a living" philosophy belongs firmly in the liberal realm.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Seven million in assets sitting in Germany? What's the matter, your own country's financial institutions not good enough for you?

No, my country's tax rates are so high, I decided to leave it there instead of bringing it here and being taxed. Back about 15 years ago, my partner and I had patented a process for development of a particular type of high-speed film. We sold our patent to a German-based group affiliated with the film company, and had the option to leave the money in a tax-free account there, or receive it as taxable income here. Since I wasn't hurting for money, and didn't really want to pay the taxes on that much income, I chose to leave it there. I have made several transfers over the years, each time, I have to pay the taxes as if it were earned income. I don't consider myself "rich" so I certainly do mind paying more taxes.

So I pose the question to you again... which would you rather have the tax collection on? The few small transfers I make from my German account here and there? OR-- The tax from dividends produced from that wealth invested in a business here, providing jobs and economic stimulus here? Which would produce more overall tax revenues, and which would provide more boost to the economy? ...Think, dumbshit, think!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

"....once they have wealth, why do they need to keep earning income? They can live very comfortably, have anything they want, and never have to touch the principle of their wealth... they don't NEED to go out and EARN INCOME!"

I explained that in msg. 78. The interest off their money would not allow them to "have anything they want". $10 million would bring about 1.5 million after taxes. You depict wealthy individuals as content, no ambition, no goals which is completely absurd. As they acquire their money they are exposed to and become familiar with a different lifestyle just like everyone else.

Let me dumb this down for you. A poor person sees their friend purchased a big screen TV. Now they would like to have one. A wealthier person sees their friend built a theater room in their home and wants one. The poor person, having never been in a home with a theater room, would be content with having just a big screen TV. The wealthier person is no longer content with just their big screen TV. Do you get it?

The same idea works with everything else. As one becomes wealthy they are exposed to more and more luxuries. The vacation on a Florida beach is drab compared to a vacation on Bali. The same thing that motivates an individual to become wealthy is what motivates them to want additional wealth. A person who has acquires $10 million is not going to be content living on $1.5 million.

And by the way, you're arguing against yourself. If you have $7 million in assets why not cash out and live off the interest? Leave the money in Germany, collect the 2% interest which would be $1.4 million/yr and pay tax on that. At 32% tax rate that would leave you $958,000 to live on.

So, the question is, "Why are you still working and paying tax?" You've told us over and over the wealthy don't have to work. So, you're either arguing out your a$$ or you are a liar. Please let us know which one so we can adequately address it.

First of all, I don't consider myself "rich" ...$7 million is not what I consider "wealthy." Oprah Winfrey probably has that much money shoot out her ass whenever she sneezes! I make a fairly comfortable living, but I don't HAVE to work. I do so because I enjoy it, I am fulfilled by it, and it makes me happy. I don't have some uncontrollable and insatiable desire to own boats and cars and corporate jets, that never hit me when I obtained the windfall. I am content to live comfortably, and provide for my children, and I have been fortunate enough to be able to do that.

 

[Rune]

First of all, I don't consider myself "rich" ...$7 million is not what I consider "wealthy." Oprah Winfrey probably has that much money shoot out her ass whenever she sneezes! I make a fairly comfortable living, but I don't HAVE to work. I do so because I enjoy it, I am fulfilled by it, and it makes me happy. I don't have some uncontrollable and insatiable desire to own boats and cars and corporate jets, that never hit me when I obtained the windfall. I am content to live comfortably, and provide for my children, and I have been fortunate enough to be able to do that.

Thanks for destroying your own argument, PINHEAD.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

And by the way, you're arguing against yourself. If you have $7 million in assets why not cash out and live off the interest? Leave the money in Germany, collect the 2% interest which would be $1.4 million/yr and pay tax on that. At 32% tax rate that would leave you $958,000 to live on.

Where did you get your math degree? 2% of 7 million is NOT $1.4 million! Dumbass! It's $140k... $95,200 after taxes.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Thanks for destroying your own argument, PINHEAD.

???? Maybe you can explain your convoluted assumption?

 

[Rune]

Thanks for destroying your own argument, PINHEAD.

Average net worth for an american your age, $54000. http://www.moneyrelationship.com/retirement/the-average-net-worth-of-americans-where-do-you-stand/

If your statement is true, you are wealthy. Comparing yourself to Oprah is stupid, she is one of the richest people in the world. So, you have interest income of about 100K, plus you EARN a comfortable living.

Here is the part that EVERYBODY on the whole forum has been saying to you for weeks, and you keep denying; "I do so (work) because I enjoy it, I am fulfilled by it, and it makes me happy."

You think you are unique or something? Only a fool doesn't like to work, and I haven't met many wealthy fools. You are talking out your ass, one way or another.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

"....once they have wealth, why do they need to keep earning income? They can live very comfortably, have anything they want, and never have to touch the principle of their wealth... they don't NEED to go out and EARN INCOME!"

I explained that in msg. 78. The interest off their money would not allow them to "have anything they want". $10 million would bring about 1.5 million after taxes. You depict wealthy individuals as content, no ambition, no goals which is completely absurd. As they acquire their money they are exposed to and become familiar with a different lifestyle just like everyone else.

Let me dumb this down for you. A poor person sees their friend purchased a big screen TV. Now they would like to have one. A wealthier person sees their friend built a theater room in their home and wants one. The poor person, having never been in a home with a theater room, would be content with having just a big screen TV. The wealthier person is no longer content with just their big screen TV. Do you get it?

The same idea works with everything else. As one becomes wealthy they are exposed to more and more luxuries. The vacation on a Florida beach is drab compared to a vacation on Bali. The same thing that motivates an individual to become wealthy is what motivates them to want additional wealth. A person who has acquires $10 million is not going to be content living on $1.5 million.

And by the way, you're arguing against yourself. If you have $7 million in assets why not cash out and live off the interest? Leave the money in Germany, collect the 2% interest which would be $1.4 million/yr and pay tax on that. At 32% tax rate that would leave you $958,000 to live on.

So, the question is, "Why are you still working and paying tax?" You've told us over and over the wealthy don't have to work. So, you're either arguing out your a$$ or you are a liar. Please let us know which one so we can adequately address it.

Since when is a TV a necessity.
You're still promoting socialism; but what would happen, if when they get their "wealth" they then close their business and fire everyone. Seeing as how you feel they don't need to acquire anymore wealth.
How is that going to help anyone.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Average net worth for an american your age, $54000. http://www.moneyrelationship.com/retirement/the-average-net-worth-of-americans-where-do-you-stand/

If your statement is true, you are wealthy. Comparing yourself to Oprah is stupid, she is one of the richest people in the world. So, you have interest income of about 100K, plus you EARN a comfortable living.

Here is the part that EVERYBODY on the whole forum has been saying to you for weeks, and you keep denying; "I do so (work) because I enjoy it, I am fulfilled by it, and it makes me happy."

You think you are unique or something? Only a fool doesn't like to work, and I haven't met many wealthy fools. You are talking out your ass, one way or another.

I know a LOT of people who don't like to work, they are mostly deadbeat liberals.

I don't recall ever saying that rich people don't like to work. I said rich people don't NEED to earn incomes. They don't! They are already wealthy, they can pay their bills, they can live comfortably, they don't need or require an income like 'average' people. One of my wealthy high school friends, his wife works, she does volunteer work... doesn't make a penny of income. The argument is about raising taxes on the so-called "rich." My contention is, you can't tax "the rich" you can only tax those who earn high incomes. The rich don't need to earn high incomes, they already did, that's how they became rich. So now, they can live on a modest income, or no income at all, if they want to. I didn't say they all want to... some don't... some want to keep making more and more money, and you can tax them! You can also tax the modest incomes of the rich living off their wealth... it won't grow or stimulate the economy or create jobs, and it won't produce all that much tax revenue, but you can certainly levy the tax.

 

[Guns Guns Guns]

I can balance the budget.


Here's the proof.


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=w3xl756t



Why can't the Seven-Million-Dollar man (AKA Dixie) balance the budget?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I can balance the budget.

Here's the proof.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?choices=w3xl756t

Why can't the Seven-Million-Dollar man (AKA Dixie) balance the budget?

Because the little worksheet you're presenting from the NY Times, is not accurate, and not representative of all the possible choices. First of all, it is entirely based on static figures which will not change regardless of what actions are taken. We know for a fact, because of human nature, that people's behaviors and actions can change dramatically, dependent on personal benefit or loss. We also know the economy can be effected dramatically by sudden abrupt changes, like closing a bunch of military bases. So your little worksheet doesn't account for any of that, it assumes that all will remain static, the same, regardless of what we do. When it calculates a tax increase, it assumes the same amount of taxable income will pour in, and more revenue will be realized, and that simply isn't the case according to the historical data. In short, your worksheet is a hodgepodge of liberal stupidity, in the form of a worksheet.

 

[apple0154]

If a wealthy person is living off the earnings without touching their principle, then they have an INCOME. (fucking DUH!) Investment income comes in three forms: interest income (taxable), capital gains from the buying and selling of stocks, options, and commodities futures (also taxable, and at a higher rate than other forms of income), and dividends from the long term ownership of stock (not taxable).

Also, while uber-liberal wealthy asswipes like Patrick Kennedy may brag about never having a job in their useless lives, so they don't need a tax cut, most wealthy people are wealthy - and stay wealthy - because they WORK - and work hard, probably a lot harder than the "little" guys uber liberal feel the wealthy are supposed to be supporting. Most of those the envy-ridden liberal twits label as wealthy own businesses. And most of those put in 60+ hour work weeks running their businesses.

Oh, and income derived from the operation of businesses is also taxable.

Maybe people with $7M saved up don't kick back and live off the interest their money can generate because they don't believe in lives of idle sloth. They believe in working and being productive members of society. The whole "the world owes me a living" philosophy belongs firmly in the liberal realm.

"most wealthy people are wealthy - and stay wealthy - because they WORK"

That's exactly what I've been trying to tell Dixie but I can't get through to him.

Good luck.

 

[apple0154]

Since when is a TV a necessity.
You're still promoting socialism; but what would happen, if when they get their "wealth" they then close their business and fire everyone. Seeing as how you feel they don't need to acquire anymore wealth.
How is that going to help anyone.

I was responding to Dixie as he constantly says the wealthy won't work if taxes are too high and that's not true unless the tax rate is very, very high. Wealthy people who worked for their wealth keep working and acquiring more.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I was responding to Dixie as he constantly says the wealthy won't work if taxes are too high and that's not true unless the tax rate is very, very high. Wealthy people who worked for their wealth keep working and acquiring more.

Let's clear some things up here.... there is no blanket definition of "what rich people do" in this conversation. All people are different, including rich people. We all have assorted and various circumstances which usually dictate what we do or don't do, and a lot also depends on the individual.... how they think, what motivates them, etc. For some strange reason, you keep wanting to argue with a generalization that rich people will and do behave in a certain way all the time, regardless of anything else. That is not reality-based. While some rich people might indeed continue to work and earn income, some won't continue to work, they will retire and enjoy their wealth... other people will blow through their wealth and become destitute... other people will invest their wealth wisely and become even richer... other people will invest (or gamble) their wealth poorly and lose everything... other people will invest their wealth in foreign interests and some people may even stuff their wealth in the mattress. There is no set way that rich people (or any people) will behave.

The point that seems to be skipping over your empty pinhead, is that people who have wealth, do not require a large earned income. Once they have attained a certain level of wealth, there is simply no practical need for them to go out and work a 40-hour week for a boss and earn an income like 'regular' people. They may (as I do) work because they enjoy having something to do... They may even invest in business and pay high taxes on high incomes because they enjoy whatever it is they do... but by and large, wealthy people are (for the most part) not going to do things that are foolish with their money, that's not how they became wealthy, and there is no rational reason they would start suddenly behaving stupidly with their money. Again... perhaps some do... but most won't.

Now here's the thing... You have a person who already holds wealth, it's locked away somewhere in a security trust, earning interest, safe from income taxation and relatively safe from risk. They don't have the practical need to earn any more wealth, but if the opportunity is attractive enough, they might be inclined to do so. In other words, they can go either way... it's not like they don't have any choice. What we have to discuss, is what can we do to make it attractive to the wealthy person, to take that money out of securities and invest it in something which will stimulate the economy. You think that raising their rate of taxation will motivate them to take their money out of securities and this will generate more revenues... I argue that the opposite will happen, they will not be so inclined. I don't know how you arrive at your conclusion, it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, but I do know that when you make it attractive for them to invest in a business venture or entrepreneurship of some sort, a lot of them will.... again, some won't, even when it's attractive to do so.

In any event, most wealthy people are going to make money... they can't help it... just the presence of their wealth, earns money for them, and they don't even have to work for it. And we can tax that earning at the highest possible rate... they don't really care, it doesn't really effect their overall wealth... but what it does, again, is discourages them from investment in business ventures and entrepreneurship. It doesn't matter to them about earning high income if it's only going to be eaten up in taxes... why do they care? Why not just leave their money where it's at, in a tax-free security trust, and enjoy life?

 

[USFREEDOM911]

I was responding to Dixie as he constantly says the wealthy won't work if taxes are too high and that's not true unless the tax rate is very, very high. Wealthy people who worked for their wealth keep working and acquiring more.

And once you begin taking more then they think is fair; they'll either close their business, or relocate.
NOW; what happens to all the workers?

 

[SmarterthanYou]

And that's what has to be changed. Tax income from ALL sources.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

i'm reminded of the reagan quote here.
"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it."

 

[apple0154]

Let's clear some things up here.... there is no blanket definition of "what rich people do" in this conversation. All people are different, including rich people. We all have assorted and various circumstances which usually dictate what we do or don't do, and a lot also depends on the individual.... how they think, what motivates them, etc. For some strange reason, you keep wanting to argue with a generalization that rich people will and do behave in a certain way all the time, regardless of anything else. That is not reality-based. While some rich people might indeed continue to work and earn income, some won't continue to work, they will retire and enjoy their wealth... other people will blow through their wealth and become destitute... other people will invest their wealth wisely and become even richer... other people will invest (or gamble) their wealth poorly and lose everything... other people will invest their wealth in foreign interests and some people may even stuff their wealth in the mattress. There is no set way that rich people (or any people) will behave.

The point that seems to be skipping over your empty pinhead, is that people who have wealth, do not require a large earned income. Once they have attained a certain level of wealth, there is simply no practical need for them to go out and work a 40-hour week for a boss and earn an income like 'regular' people. They may (as I do) work because they enjoy having something to do... They may even invest in business and pay high taxes on high incomes because they enjoy whatever it is they do... but by and large, wealthy people are (for the most part) not going to do things that are foolish with their money, that's not how they became wealthy, and there is no rational reason they would start suddenly behaving stupidly with their money. Again... perhaps some do... but most won't.

Now here's the thing... You have a person who already holds wealth, it's locked away somewhere in a security trust, earning interest, safe from income taxation and relatively safe from risk. They don't have the practical need to earn any more wealth, but if the opportunity is attractive enough, they might be inclined to do so. In other words, they can go either way... it's not like they don't have any choice. What we have to discuss, is what can we do to make it attractive to the wealthy person, to take that money out of securities and invest it in something which will stimulate the economy. You think that raising their rate of taxation will motivate them to take their money out of securities and this will generate more revenues... I argue that the opposite will happen, they will not be so inclined. I don't know how you arrive at your conclusion, it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, but I do know that when you make it attractive for them to invest in a business venture or entrepreneurship of some sort, a lot of them will.... again, some won't, even when it's attractive to do so.

In any event, most wealthy people are going to make money... they can't help it... just the presence of their wealth, earns money for them, and they don't even have to work for it. And we can tax that earning at the highest possible rate... they don't really care, it doesn't really effect their overall wealth... but what it does, again, is discourages them from investment in business ventures and entrepreneurship. It doesn't matter to them about earning high income if it's only going to be eaten up in taxes... why do they care? Why not just leave their money where it's at, in a tax-free security trust, and enjoy life?

"Why not just leave their money where it's at, in a tax-free security trust, and enjoy life?"

Because that's not their temperament.

Temperament: the combination of mental, physical, and emotional traits of a person; natural predisposition. (dic.com)

The first rule of thumb is people do what they want to do or, at the very least, try to do what they want to do. If an individual has spent 15 or 20 years acquiring wealth that means they wanted to do that. They liked doing that, for whatever reason, but seldom is the sole reason just wanting to retire and do nothing.

One could say an individual who has worked, over time, to acquire wealth is predisposed to do so and they will continue to do so much like the way an alcoholic or drug user will continue their lifestyle unless a major obstacle stops them and raising taxes 3% or 4% or 5% more is not going to stop a wealthy person who is predisposed to acquiring wealth.

If a wealthy person decides to place their money in a bank and not invest it there will be other people, those predisposed to acquiring wealth, wanting to borrow that money and use it to do so.

 

[apple0154]

And once you begin taking more then they think is fair; they'll either close their business, or relocate.
NOW; what happens to all the workers?

As I noted in msg. 99 wealthy people are predisposed to acquiring wealth. They enjoy the process. If they close a business they will find another business to operate. If they relocate the area in which they relocate will benefit. If the area is out of the country the money they use from the business coming back to the US will be taxed.

It seems the point of lowering taxes is to compensate for the much lower wages in other parts of the world. That thinking has resulted in "the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer" with outrageous compensation being 50 or 100 times the average salary.

 

[The Dude]

I blame the repukes, they raised it 7 times under Bush.

The poor are getting richer too, economics is soooo hard for poor people.

Please look up productivity and cost of goods.
The poor have more shit in thier cribs, it's not even debatable.