Republicans' Next Move: Get Rid of Pensions Altogether???

signalmankenneth

Verified User
Some states, like Wisconsin, are asking state employees to contribute more to their pension plans, but others are just scrapping them.

Robert Hiltonsmith | March 11, 2011

The battle over public-sector unions is, at least in part, a battle over benefits: From Wisconsin to New Jersey, public-sector unions are among the last employees who can expect to retire with defined pension plans. Wisconsin, where a political showdown just resulted in reduced bargaining rights for public employees, is expected to release new estimates on state pensions next week, according to The New York Times. The state will likely ask employees to contribute more money to their plans and make other concessions.

But other states have an even more radical proposal: Get rid of pensions, which guarantee benefits, and replace them with 401(k)-type savings-and-investment plans. Earlier this week, Kansas lawmakers held a hearing on a bill to switch state employees hired after 2012 to a 401(k) system -- a move at least six states have already made and that Florida, Oklahoma, North Dakota, and Virginia are also considering. Kansas Republicans praised the bill, arguing that the state's pension system, currently facing a $7.7 billion shortfall, is unaffordable and that public workers don't deserve benefits unavailable to most private-sector employees.

The shortfall in Kansas' pension, like those in most states, was largely the result of the worst decade in the history of the stock market. As recently as the year 2000, the state's pension was 88 percent funded, a level that the Pew Center on the States, which tracks state pensions, considered adequate. The Center for Economic and Policy Research calculates that 85 percent of the pension shortfalls in states in the past decade were caused by this historically low economic performance. The rest of the hole in Kansas' fund opened up after state legislators decided not to increase contributions when benefits were raised in the early 1990s. Clearly, state pensions, Kansas' among them, are not unaffordable under normal economic conditions.

Furthermore, switching future employees to a 401(k)-type plan won't decrease the current pension shortfall by a dime, given that it only encompasses benefits promised to current and past employees.

But the real problem with getting rid of pensions isn't that it won't close state budget gaps. Most important, it would eviscerate retirement security for some of the few remaining workers who have any. Whereas pension plans -- in which contributions are pooled and invested in relatively safe, slow-growing funds -- come with the state guarantee that a retired worker will maintain a certain income, individual retirement-savings plans come with inflated Wall Street management fees and no protection from a sudden market downturn. They put workers' livelihood in the hands of financial managers who, if the financial collapse is any indication, too often make risky bets for short-term gain.

Why are 401(k)-type plans such a bad idea for public and private employees alike? First, they're expensive. The exorbitant fees charged by firms that manage 401(k) accounts can cost workers a quarter or more of their retirement savings. Over a lifetime, these fees can add up to more than $70,000 in losses for the average worker. Fees are levied on employers' matching contributions as well. If states switch to 401(k)-type plans, these costs will be shouldered by taxpayers.

401(k)s also place the burden of the multitude of risks that come with saving for retirement entirely on the backs of workers. Those forced into individual-retirement plans risk losing their savings in a market crash, investing so conservatively that they ensure themselves anemic returns, contributing too little to their plans, outliving their savings, and more.

Public employees already earn less than they would if they worked in the private sector. It seems particularly unfair to ask those who are already sacrificing in order to serve the public to shoulder the entire burden of providing for retirement, as well.

The other argument Republicans make -- that public workers don't deserve benefits that aren't available to many in the private sector -- is ludicrous on its face. Why should the misfortune of private-sector workers driven into risky, inefficient 401(k)-type retirement savings plans be extended to public employees, just for the sake of parity? The point should be to improve retirement for all instead of competing in a race to the bottom. State pension benefits are by and large modest: The average benefit in Kansas, for example, was a meager $14,213 per year in 2006. Shouldn't we be fighting to ensure that everyone has the possibility of a secure, dignified retirement, rather than trying to bring down some of the last workers who do?

In the wake of the worst recession in living memory, states and localities are facing a host of real budgetary issues. But let's all recognize that states switching to 401k-type plans won't solve a single one of them.
line-up-left.jpg


union-busting-110308.jpg
 
Pensions are unsustainable and should be replaced with 401k/403b plans. If people are too dumb to save for their own retirement, they deserve to eat Alpo.

Who actually believes their pension is secure anyway? My dad is a union member and in every issue of their publication, there's a list of union officials who are being prosecuted for embezzling pension funds.
 
Pensions are unsustainable and should be replaced with 401k/403b plans. If people are too dumb to save for their own retirement, they deserve to eat Alpo.

Who actually believes their pension is secure anyway? My dad is a union member and in every issue of their publication, there's a list of union officials who are being prosecuted for embezzling pension funds.

seems that power corrupts union management as much as ceos and cfos
 
The 2009 Social Security and Medicare Trustees Reports show the combined unfunded liability of these two programs has reached nearly $107 trillion in today's dollars! That is about seven times the size of the U.S. economy and 10 times the size of the outstanding national debt.
1855.jpg


Anyone who supports the current system must also support it's unsustainability, therefore they are the ones who want grandma to eat dog food.
 
They not only want to get rid of all pensions and force the old and sick to suffer in poverty and die, they want to take away all human and civil rights from people who don't believe in their radical corporate propaganda.
This is nothing new. The fascist right wants no middle class and most of the people in this country fearfull and hungry. Then their controll will be complete. Read 1984.

The radical right claims to love this country but thru their actions they prove that they hate the people in it and see them as a cash cow. The worse things get the more people will wise up and understand the rights real objectives. Then that will be the end of the fascist Republicon party and corporatism in this country.
 
They not only want to get rid of all pensions and force the old and sick to suffer in poverty and die, they want to take away all human and civil rights from people who don't believe in their radical corporate propaganda.
This is nothing new. The fascist right wants no middle class and most of the people in this country fearfull and hungry. Then their controll will be complete. Read 1984.

The radical right claims to love this country but thru their actions they prove that they hate the people in it and see them as a cash cow. The worse things get the more people will wise up and understand the rights real objectives. Then that will be the end of the fascist Republicon party and corporatism in this country.
:rofl:

Learn who the real enemy is to avoid embarrassing yourself further.

http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/
 
The real enemy is anyone who wants to take human and civil rights away from working Americans. People like you who don't believe in science or education or civil rights or even human rights for anyone but the rich. People like you who believe in oligarchy.

ol·i·gar·chy   
1. a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.

If you knew anything about labor history you would realize that the fascists you support have not changes in over 100 yrs. Your objectives have always been the same. Poverty for most, opulence for the few.
 
The real enemy is anyone who wants to take human and civil rights away from working Americans. People like you who don't believe in science or education or civil rights or even human rights for anyone but the rich. People like you who believe in oligarchy.

ol·i·gar·chy   
1. a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.

If you knew anything about labor history you would realize that the fascists you support have not changes in over 100 yrs. Your objectives have always been the same. Poverty for most, opulence for the few.

Spouting the same bullshit you did in the union thread in the General Politics forum? And you accused me of not living in reality?? lmao
 
The real enemy is anyone who wants to take human and civil rights away from working Americans. People like you who don't believe in science or education or civil rights or even human rights for anyone but the rich. People like you who believe in oligarchy.

ol·i·gar·chy   
1. a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.

If you knew anything about labor history you would realize that the fascists you support have not changes in over 100 yrs. Your objectives have always been the same. Poverty for most, opulence for the few.

The fact that the term "rights" have been attributed to union "powers" must be what is contributing to your hysteria...

Union powers have been curbed in order to allow Wisconsin to keep it's spending under control...a responsibility that the leaders of that states government must take seriously. No ones salaries have been cut- no ones been fired-something that WOULD have happened had the bill not been passed...
 
The real enemy is anyone who wants to take human and civil rights away from working Americans. People like you who don't believe in science or education or civil rights or even human rights for anyone but the rich. People like you who believe in oligarchy.

ol·i·gar·chy   
1. a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.

If you knew anything about labor history you would realize that the fascists you support have not changes in over 100 yrs. Your objectives have always been the same. Poverty for most, opulence for the few.

So which portion of Ryan's plan do you take acceptation to?
 
Pinhead Kenny: The other argument Republicans make -- that public workers don't deserve benefits that aren't available to many in the private sector -- is ludicrous on its face. Why should the misfortune of private-sector workers driven into risky, inefficient 401(k)-type retirement savings plans be extended to public employees, just for the sake of parity? The point should be to improve retirement for all instead of competing in a race to the bottom.

Ludicrous? It is now "ludicrous" for me to believe it is crazy to pay public servants MORE for their pensions than I provide for myself? In what fucking universe is this ludicrous? Because, to me, it is ludicrous that we are now paying public servants considerably MORE than the private sector across the board, in pay, in benefits, in holidays and sick leave, in health care, and in pensions. It's even more ludicrous that we've established a system by which they can get automatic increases in all these areas, each year, without review, without lifting a finger, regardless of the financial situation of those having to pay for it. It goes BEYOND ludicrous, to believe such a system and practice can just continue on, in spite of billions of dollars in shortfalls each year, in state budgets, and trillions in the federal budget. I think the word for that, is INSANE!
 
Has anyone else noticed Crashk never actually debates anyone? He just stops by and posts one of his insane rants, and when someone points out his error, he either responds with something completely irrelevant or takes off.
 
Pensions are unsustainable and should be replaced with 401k/403b plans. If people are too dumb to save for their own retirement, they deserve to eat Alpo.

Who actually believes their pension is secure anyway? My dad is a union member and in every issue of their publication, there's a list of union officials who are being prosecuted for embezzling pension funds.

Wow, do you ever get out of your back yard into the real world? You should try it sometime. Too dumb to save, you have such a high opinion of your fellow humans. Too dumb or not paid enough to be able to save? Have you been to the grocery store, lately? Have you tried to buy food for a family of four? Good luck telling some of your friends that they are too dumb to save. I would love to see you tell the teachers and the police that they are too dumb to save!

Isn't embezzlement the fault of the individuals who commit the crime or does this fall under union conspiracies?

Construction companies, banks and the girl scouts also have lots of people who work for them that embezzle, should we do away with them, too?
 
Has anyone else noticed Crashk never actually debates anyone? He just stops by and posts one of his insane rants, and when someone points out his error, he either responds with something completely irrelevant or takes off.


Is there a rule you have to stay and debate? Maybe it is just his place to yell so he doesn't do it to his relatives :loveu:
 
Yep, you caught us Crashk, that's exactly what we want.

:rolleyes: You don't get out much, do you.

Funny, I thought the same thing about you and your position that it is ignorance that keep people from saving.

You know the advice the one idiot gave a young man asking how he can save for his retirement when he has no discretionary income with all his expenses including college loans? The guy told him to get an extra job! WTH?
 
Has anyone else noticed Crashk never actually debates anyone? He just stops by and posts one of his insane rants, and when someone points out his error, he either responds with something completely irrelevant or takes off.

You must have really taken his comments personally!
 
Ludicrous? It is now "ludicrous" for me to believe it is crazy to pay public servants MORE for their pensions than I provide for myself? In what fucking universe is this ludicrous? Because, to me, it is ludicrous that we are now paying public servants considerably MORE than the private sector across the board, in pay, in benefits, in holidays and sick leave, in health care, and in pensions. It's even more ludicrous that we've established a system by which they can get automatic increases in all these areas, each year, without review, without lifting a finger, regardless of the financial situation of those having to pay for it. It goes BEYOND ludicrous, to believe such a system and practice can just continue on, in spite of billions of dollars in shortfalls each year, in state budgets, and trillions in the federal budget. I think the word for that, is INSANE!

You just hate rich people. :loveu:
 
Back
Top